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Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by rahimnathwani on Thursday April 24, 2025 @03:40PM (#43786667)
The options you have:

A) disagree and commit

B) disagree and wait to be fired

C) appear to commit, but secretly subvert your (elected) boss's plans/intentions

I use the word 'boss' here because the president has the right to hire and fire for this role:

  SEC. 5. 42 U.S.C. 1864 (a) The Director of the Foundation  (referred to in this Act as the ‘‘Director’’) shall be appointed by the  President by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. Before any person is appointed as Director, the President shall afford the Board an opportunity to make recommendations to him with respect to such appointment. The Director shall receive basic pay at the rate provided for level II of the Executive Schedule under section 5313 of title 5, United States Code, and shall serve for a term of six years unless sooner removed by the President.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by etskinner on Thursday April 24, 2025 @04:49PM (#43787311)
Secret other option: Disagree and convince your boss to change their mind

That, of course, probably doesn't apply in this situation since Trump rarely changes his mind. But it does apply in other situations.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by sillyfluke on Thursday April 24, 2025 @08:10PM (#43788884)
I don't know, I can feel everyone who has tried and failed to prevent calamity from inside an organization cringe recalling that they had nothing to show for it except lost years and burn out.

As for GP's options, normally I would think B (standing your ground and throwing them a small bone while waiting to get fired) is the most rational option outside of sheer self-preservation. Since its a federal job if you don't know the law it may get little dicey if you go the C route.

My guess from out of leftfield: there is immense pressure and unseen threats being thrown about by admin goons similar to what they did in the attorney general's office in the Southern District of New York, namely: If you don't resign we will fire everyone underneath you. That's what would easily explain this behavior.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by FuriouslyAdrift on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:05PM (#43787499)
There's also malicious compliance... doing EXACTLY what is asked no matter how damaging or stupid. It's the 'let it all burn down' option but I have found it drives change very quickly... CYA, though.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by IcyWindows on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:31PM (#43787729)
Isn't this what is happening now?

Given that the management is choosing who is let go, I believe many are threatening to let crucial people and programs end if funding is cut.

It's extremely effective.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by deeThrow94 on Thursday April 24, 2025 @04:53PM (#43787354)
> since Trump rarely changes his mind

That's not true; he changes his mind all the time, particularly as media coverage changes. It's just not necessarily something you can persuade him to do without catering to his ego.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by inerte on Thursday April 24, 2025 @04:56PM (#43787386)
https://www.axios.com/2025/04/19/inside-trump-mindset-tariff...

"We saw it in business with Trump," one adviser said. "He would have these meetings and everyone would agree, and then we would just pray that when he left the office and got on the elevator that the doorman wouldn't share his opinion, because there would be a 50/50 chance [Trump] would suddenly side with the doorman."

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by dylan604 on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:16PM (#43787599)
Trump is known to be that type where if you want him to go with your suggestion, you must be the last person in the room.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by Freedom2 on Thursday April 24, 2025 @11:24PM (#43789825)
Perhaps that's why Elon was following him so closely everywhere at the tail end of his campaign and at the start of his presidency.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by ricksunny on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:11PM (#43787561)
Fun fact: Exactly the stipulation behind this excerpt, whether the President can hire/fire the head of the NSF, is exactly why Truman had vetoed an earlier version of the NSF bill written under the close influence of Vannevar Bush that actively avoided providing for this extent of executive ‘weighing of the scales’ of science. Source: Bush, V. “Pieces of the Action”, 1970
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by mensetmanusman on Friday April 25, 2025 @09:58AM (#43793617)
I’m so glad you know this, as I was going to comment on this topic of history.

Bush was a wise man, Truman forgot that government power can be fickle.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by ricksunny on Friday April 25, 2025 @08:10PM (#43799710)
For The Tech minded, I wrote an guest column that touched on the autonomy of technical management aspect.

https://thetech.com/2024/07/11/anniversary-vannevar-bush-pas...

the “unchecked committee of technocratic experts appeared to be his preferred agency governance form.” refers both to his utterances illustrated in his only biography to date, and particularly to the would-be May-Johnson governance structure he promoted.

Today we see the debate in full swing with discussion of technocratic elitism, (particularly this year more than last when I wrote the piece).

I wrestle with the pitfalls & perceived benefits a technocratic elite sans much representative democratic oversight. But make no mistake, a ‘Vannevarian’ world would appear very different to the current one we prefer to think we live in. The closest example in pop culture to what I imagine is the Fallout franchise’s Vault governance & managed society.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by mensetmanusman on Friday April 25, 2025 @11:07PM (#43800560)
This is great. I worked in building 13 and speak about V. Bush when I give talks to course 3 phd students occasionally :)

William B. Bonvillian taught me the bit I know about the topic :)

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by ricksunny on Saturday April 26, 2025 @01:51AM (#43801255)
The very namesake building I’ll keep sensitized to the STS Bonvillian name, I was unfamiliar prior, thank you.

That’s great to hear you sometimes give talks to course 3 students, as maybe some of them will go on to study lattices like: https://www.sf-uap.com/materials-science , for which study under what governance structure we may not know.

All the best.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by lesuorac on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:47PM (#43787873)
Is it disagree and commit?

NSF is an "independent agency" [1] so if the job you were appointed to an confirmed by congress (senate) is at odds with the presidents desires I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a problem for the president not you.

Similar to all those inspector generals who just gave up when they were illegally fired. Literally your job is to prevent the president from corruption, how are you going to do that now?

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_Un...

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by rahimnathwani on Thursday April 24, 2025 @07:57PM (#43788806)
The US has three branches of government.

If you believe the NSF is independent then you are implicitly agreeing with those who claim there is a fourth 'deep state' branch of government that operates without accountability.

Separately: I cited the law that says the president can fire the head of the NSF. So I'm not sure why you'd conclude that any disagreement would be a problem for the president.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by sanderjd on Thursday April 24, 2025 @08:18PM (#43788923)
Nah, people have got to stop buying into this unitary executive stuff! Independent agencies have oversight and accountability. Congress can do whatever they want with them whenever they want.

I think it's imminently reasonable to say that agencies shouldn't be independent of the executive, and that's the default if the legislation passed by Congress (and signed by the current executive!) doesn't specify otherwise. But Congress should, and I believe does, have the power to set things up otherwise.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by fluidcruft on Thursday April 24, 2025 @08:47PM (#43789113)
I agree but only to the point that an independent agency setup by Congress exercises powers granted Congress by the Constitution and does not conflict with powers explicitly granted to other branches.

(And it's pretty unclear to me how the NSF, which is ultimately a method for Congress to spend money, could relate to any Executive powers)

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by sanderjd on Thursday April 24, 2025 @09:06PM (#43789223)
Yeah that's the thing, what powers are even granted directly to the executive by the text? It seems to me that the whole unitary executive theory is based on the clause "The executive Power shall be vested in a President", where "the executive power" is never well defined.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by fluidcruft on Thursday April 24, 2025 @10:57PM (#43789713)
The President commands the military, negotiates treaties, nominates various officials for confirmation. Probably the most leeway relates to being called to ensure laws are faithfully executed.

So it seems reasonable the Executive can police independent agencies to ensure they operate as authorized by law, but I don't see how that challenges the establishment or existence of lawful independent agencies.

NSF is one thing but say an independent agency that does things like negotiate treaties or command the military or nominate Supreme Court justices should be off the table

(But on the other hand, theoretically the Executive should be able to voluntarily authorize legislation that enables those things if they wanted to. Just saying I can see cooperation possible but a veto override probably won't work to force it on an unwilling Executive).

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by sanderjd on Friday April 25, 2025 @12:42AM (#43790158)
I meant my question to be a rhetorical question, but that was totally unclear in what I wrote. What I meant was to imply "the executive isn't even granted very many powers directly in the text".

I agree with you about the powers you enumerated.

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by throwawaymaths on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:59PM (#43787964)
Seems unconstitutional for congress to be able to create a regulatory agency fully outside of the executive's control, as who will check the congress's power? Appointment and confirmation exists so both branches must assent to all officers of then government
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by lelandfe on Thursday April 24, 2025 @06:04PM (#43788004)
> who will check the congress's power

The judiciary. E.g Bowsher v. Synar

Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by sanderjd on Thursday April 24, 2025 @08:20PM (#43788940)
Yeah this is a silly argument. The check on the actions of independent agencies is the same as the check on the actions of all agencies. The executive obviously isn't a check on the actions of executive agencies...
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by wavefunction on Thursday April 24, 2025 @06:23PM (#43788170)
The Judicial Branch is supposed to provide oversight over the Executive and Legislative Branch.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by vharuck on Thursday April 24, 2025 @10:43PM (#43789645)
Bills also require the president to sign them, though a supermajority of Congress could override the veto.
Re:NSF director to resign amid grant terminations, job cuts,... by const_cast on Friday April 25, 2025 @04:09PM (#43798030)
It's not unconstitutional, it's already been done and the supreme court says it's fine.

They decide what is and is not constitutional, not you. And, contrary to what Internet armchair "textualists" will proclaim, most of the constitution is up for interpretation and actually quite vague.

We've been debating the constitution since the moment we lifted the pen. Or, er, quill. Have some humility.