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Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by i80and on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:12PM (#43683546)
Not to be blunt, but isn't this the end of habeas corpus, if the federal government can black bag anybody they want to without a trial, and then maintain they have no ability to obey judicial orders to return them?
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by stego-tech on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:12PM (#43683554)
Yes, and that was the point all along.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by csolorio on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:13PM (#43683583)
They're using the excuse that he's not a citizen. Slippery slope.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by fanatic2pope on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:25PM (#43683752)
They have already said they want to send US citizens there too.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/white-house-confirms-trump-is...

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by hobs on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:14PM (#43683593)
They simply have to not validate you are a US citizen, no rights for anyone means no rights for everyone.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by sorcerer-mar on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:24PM (#43683746)
It's not a slippery slope, it's blatantly unconstitutional already.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 15, 2025 @01:41AM (#43689321)
Habeus corpus is only suspended in war. Not a citizen doesn’t mean Russia can jail any American connecting in Moscow because they had a bad haircut.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by croes on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:15PM (#43683604)
Isn’t Guantanamo something similar?

At least the government didn’t pretend they can’t they just don’t want to

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by UncleMeat on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:20PM (#43683693)
Guantanamo is indeed a horrible authoritarian injustice but it is not the same. Gitmo is operated by the US government and people detained there can still have access to legal representation to challenge their detainment.

What is happening here is the US government sending people to a gulag operated by a foreign nation and then insisting that that's the end of it. There can be no meaningful challenge of your unlawful detainment. With CECOT your only opportunity to vindicate your rights is at the literal moment that you are grabbed off the street.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by croes on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:33PM (#43683881)
That’s why I wrote similar especially under Bush.

One of the milestones in the fall of human rights in the west.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by wtallis on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:24PM (#43683744)
Guantanamo was Bush's attempt to circumvent habeas corpus by imprisoning people outside the country. The Supreme Court didn't let him get away with that. The El Salvador strategy is the logical next step to avoid habeas corpus, by using a prison that is foreign-operated not just located in a foreign country.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by rich_sasha on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:40PM (#43683969)
With no endorsement of what went on in Gitmo, at least it was mostly people accused of truly terrible crimes.

Isn't the Salvador cohort literally mostly random people?

EDIT: by "random people" I meant the ones deported from the US, not people arrested in El Salvador.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by miles on Monday April 14, 2025 @02:35PM (#43684591)
> [A]t least [Gitmo] was mostly people accused of truly terrible crimes.

Factsheet: The Human Cost of Guantánamo Bay Detention Camp https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/factsheet-the-human-c...

> Since its founding in 2002, Guantánamo Bay military prison has held 780 adults and minors from around fifty different countries, all of whom are Muslim. As of 2022, 732 of them (or 94 percent) have been released without ever having been formally charged. Nine men have died in custody, seven by apparent suicide and two due to illness. Of the thirty-nine remaining, thirteen have been recommended for release but remain imprisoned. Twelve out of the original 780 (or 1.5 percent) have been charged with or convicted of crimes and remain in Guantánamo. The remaining fourteen individuals continue to be held without trial in indefinite detention.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by rich_sasha on Monday April 14, 2025 @02:44PM (#43684677)
Pretty sobering read.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by 6510 on Monday April 14, 2025 @07:37PM (#43687453)
Imagine spending 13 million per year to detain a 16 year old over accusations. 35 k per day.

It only makes sense if those arranging this get a kick out of seeing what they can get away with.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by rvnx on Tuesday April 15, 2025 @05:33AM (#43690730)
Cheaper than playing golf ($26M USD year-to-date)
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by yencabulator on Tuesday April 15, 2025 @12:58PM (#43695536)
*released without ever having been formally charged* is such a damning statement on how they were tortured without a reason.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by ty6853 on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:48PM (#43684072)
No, most of CECOT is prisoners arrested within El Salvador. Only a small section is previously US domiciled persons. The US only funded 300 of the available 40,000 slots. Most of them were from domestic gang round-ups, though I'm sure that process was highly imperfect.

So Mr. Garcia will be surrounded by a gigantic cohort of legitimate, full body 'MS-13' tattood, hard hitting gang members. If he wasn't in a gang before he likely is now, or getting the living shit beat out of him because he lacks gang protection.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by orwin on Monday April 14, 2025 @06:27PM (#43686963)
Wasn't he in the US because he was fleeing the gangs? Or is it another deportee?
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by ty6853 on Monday April 14, 2025 @06:58PM (#43687218)
Yes he was fleeing the gangs so they sent him to be locked up with the gang that wanted to kill him.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by selimthegrim on Tuesday April 15, 2025 @03:29PM (#43697367)
They sent him towards the brothel to get away from the brothel.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by kyleee on Monday April 14, 2025 @07:10PM (#43687290)
I don’t believe there was any claim of asylum, rather he was ruled to be deported in around 2019, and held to be deportable on appeal, and then he failed to deport and was once again apprehended in 2025. His status changed when MS13 was designated a terrorist group (he was adjudicated to belong to MS13 during the deportation proceedings) which did away with his special request to not be sent to El Salvador.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by ty6853 on Monday April 14, 2025 @07:32PM (#43687427)
He claimed asylum but it was denied because it was too late. After the deportation order there was an order of withholding from deportation, after which it appears he was granted some form of work authorization and parole with annual check ins.

Nevertheless I strongly believe if the US had just dumped him in a village in El Salvador none of this would be news. They have done that to US citizens and hardly anyone noticed. The real story is he was sent into an experimental contract foreign prison at the behest of the government and the violation of the withholding order provides the wedge to challenge it and eventually wedge to make it easier to challenge more happenings at CECOT. Even if he is an MS13 member, the government never used due process to withdraw the withholding of removal order that they are claiming should no longer exist.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by jmpz on Wednesday April 16, 2025 @02:53AM (#43702280)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Kilmar_Abrego_G...

* In March 2019, Prince George's County, Maryland, police arrested Abrego Garcia and three other men in a Home Depot parking lot, where they were seeking work as day laborers.[2][19] One of the men claimed Abrego Garcia was a "gang member," but The Atlantic reported that, according to court filings, the man offered no proof and police said they did not believe him.[19] Abrego Garcia was never charged with a crime in connection to his arrest.[20]

Police handed custody of Abrego Garcia over to ICE for deportation proceedings. In those proceedings, the government claimed that he was a member of the MS-13 criminal gang because "he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie" and a confidential informant claimed that he was active with an MS-13 group based in New York,[2] where he has never lived.[16] ICE relied on information from a form that was filled out by a local police officer who was suspended not long after for "giving confidential information about a case to a sex worker", and thus was unavailable when Abrego Garcia's lawyer sought more information.[21] Roger Parloff of Lawfare notes that since neither the officer nor the informant were cross-examined, the accusation went through two layers of hearsay to reach the immigration court. An immigration judge determined that the informant's claim[22] was sufficient evidence for the purpose of denying Abrego Garcia's bond request; another judge upheld that ruling on appeal, saying the claim was not clearly wrong.[18] However, no court has ever made a "full adjudication" of this issue.[18] *

The evidence of him being a member of MS13 is dubious at best, and suspicious since he and his brother had fled to the US to escape gangs in El Salvador.

He didn't fail to deport, he applied for asylum and withholding of removal during the process. Asylum wasn't possible because it needed to be applied for within a year of arriving, but he was granted withholding of removal, which he'd maintained by checking in yearly with ICE since 2019.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by saagarjha on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:42PM (#43684003)
The accusation is that they are gang members or terrorists. Unfortunately, looking at the accusation doesn't really change what is going on here.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by rich_sasha on Monday April 14, 2025 @02:16PM (#43684430)
Well, I think two horrible things can be unequal, one can be more horrible than the other.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by croes on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:44PM (#43684023)
Guantanamo: random people accused of being part of Al-Qaeda

El Salvador: random people accused of being part of Tren de Aragua

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by KerrAvon on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:17PM (#43683649)
Yes, but Guantanamo should have been closed (Obama promised to do this! he didn't do it!) and the people who masterminded it should have been thrown in jail. But, no, we had to "look forward" and not punish the war criminals in our immediate past.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by i80and on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:29PM (#43683815)
Obama did sign EO 13492 requiring Guantanamo to be closed, in fairness, with a deadline and everything.

He could have and should have done more, but the blame for that one mostly falls on Congress (at the time firmly controlled by Democrats) blocking said EO

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by xnx on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:26PM (#43683770)
> Obama promised to do this! he didn't do it!

True, but important to know that Republican congress stopped every attempt he made. He still got the number of prisoners down from 242 to 55.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by croes on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:31PM (#43683847)
Didn’t some Democrats help stopping?
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by i80and on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:41PM (#43683981)
The EO was signed in 2009.

The 2009-2011 Congress was Democratically controlled.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by alabastervlog on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:45PM (#43684030)
"Close our terrible and unnecessary human rights black hole" was, sadly, too far "left" for a bunch of Democrats, and of course Republicans love that kind of stuff, so they weren't going to help.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by femiagbabiaka on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:57PM (#43684205)
This trend of:

> Democrats fail to do something

> it's because they universally wanted to but were obstructed.

Doesn't really work in a post-Trump era. They could've done whatever they wanted to, if they were willing to try.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by drewcoo on Monday April 14, 2025 @04:33PM (#43686002)
Gitmo is a US naval base, thus considered American soil by US authorities. That's the difference.

Well . . . a difference. Something like 95% of Gitmo detainees were eventually determined not to be terrorists and were freed. I expect No Salvador to be a bit worse.

Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by treetalker on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:41PM (#43683986)
That will be moot once Trump suspends habeas corpus.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by matwood on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:52PM (#43684129)
Assuming they pick up and send someone out of the country quickly, it's already de facto suspended now.
Re:U.S. and El Salvador Say They Won't Return Man Who Was Mi... by bananapub on Monday April 14, 2025 @01:15PM (#43683620)
correct, and in another place they're claiming that the habeas petition that was filed to save another victim was invalid because it was filed in the wrong state, because the Feds had kidnapped the woman, then refused to say where they had taken her until she was safely in a friendlier jurisdiction. due process has already died.