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Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by riffraff on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:07AM (#43641447)
I live in Europe and I also ask "why can't we have that".

High speed rail >240km/h is still very uncommon[0], especially cross border (tho notable exceptions exist, e.g. Paris-Milan with both TGV and Frecciarossa just reopened).

There are EU plans for a wider network but it's progressing very slowly.

The presence of fast trains between two cities, on the scale of <600km, is transformative, as it becomes more convenient to take a train than to fly, while also having less negative externalities.

0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Europe

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by the_mitsuhiko on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:25AM (#43641533)
> I live in Europe and I also ask "why can't we have that".

Which country are you in? Because the answer for "we" greatly depends on local environments and politics.

For Austria the answer for instance is "the alps" and urban sprawl. Trains stop everywhere and people want to keep this, there is just not enough distance to have high speed rails be effective and there is not enough space for dedicated lines. The answer is a very different one than for instance why Germany has so little.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mrweasel on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:42AM (#43641619)
That's a good point. The two endpoint of the main Danish railway line are both airports. Flight time between the two is around 30 minutes, maybe a little less, price, as little as €25. Take the train between the two, travel time is 6 hours, and it costs €70, if you're lucky you can buy something overpriced to eat, but don't count on it, so pack a lunch and drinks. So why would you ever take the train?

The problem is that Denmark is shaped like a big L and there's no way to connect the ends without building an insanely long bridge.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:46AM (#43641642)
>For Austria the answer for instance is "the alps" and urban sprawl.

There are no Alps between Vienna and Graz, the second largest city yet it takes 2.5 hours to get to Vienna from Graz, while the same ~200km journey is faster by car on the highway and that's accounting for traffic and you sticking to the 100-130kmph highway speed limit which plenty of drivers do not to shorten their journey. My ex-CEO would floor it to get home much quicker than the train and have his secretary pay the speed-cam fines on his company's dime.

When you monitor the trains' speed on the internal screens, you can see the average speed on the straights is somewhere around 100kmph, slower than cars on the adjacent highway.

What's the excuse there for such slow ass trains? And Austrian train tickets aren't cheap either.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by inglor_cz on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:14AM (#43641806)
Not an Austrian, but your talking about "excuses for such slow ass trains" seems to be missing the fact that the Austrians are building two large rail tunnels:

The Semmering base tunnel - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmering_Base_Tunnel which will shorten travel between Vienna and Graz, and the Koralmbahn tunnel - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koralm_Tunnel

Also, no Alps between Vienna and Graz? Have you looked out of the window? If you haven't, here is the map. The heights of the peaks are in meters, so 3x for feet:

https://mapy.cz/s/bokococuza

That is a bona fide mountainous terrain.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:07PM (#43647109)
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by windward on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:22AM (#43641865)
I checked this route, it's very wiggly. Would there really be much to gain, even if the top speed was doubled?

It's a train, so:

- Accelerating takes a lot of time and space

- Braking takes a lot of time and space

- Allowing overtaking takes a lot of infrastructure and good timetabling.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by FirmwareBurner on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:07PM (#43647104)
Sure, but as a traveler, why would you care about the details when a car ride is faster (and sometimes cheaper) than the train? The whole point of rail is that you get to the destination faster and cheaper than with a car.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by PlunderBunny on Thursday April 10, 2025 @09:58PM (#43649756)
For me, the whole point of rail is that I get to my destination more comfortably, and am able to do something else during the journey (e.g. work on my laptop). I don't mind if that's a bit slower, or takes longer, than in a car.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by FirmwareBurner on Friday April 11, 2025 @06:29AM (#43652363)
For those who travel for work and business, time matters a lot, especially when you start to add the times to and from the train station at the source and destination. If rail ads 2+ hours more versus car, that's 2+ hours less you can be with your family that day. If you're travelling for vacation, those 2+ hours means you might miss out on a flight that's only once per day. And so on.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by windward on Friday April 11, 2025 @08:40AM (#43653117)
That's a different question to "why can't we have that"
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by Topfi on Friday April 11, 2025 @01:25AM (#43650750)
> There are no Alps between Vienna and Graz [...]

You what? Please don't take this the wrong way, but the things I read about European countries on HN sometimes are asinine and part of why, despite desperately wanting to sometimes, I'll do my best to never comment on US centric topics where I have little to know personal knowledge or experience.

Not only is the Südbahn between Vienna and Graz going through the Alps[0], it is the railways that goes through the alps. It is world famous for that fact. It was the first regular mountain railway in the world and is a UNESCO heritage because of it.

> [...] 130kmph highway speed limit which plenty of drivers do not to shorten their journey.

I'm certain the Railjet could also gain a few minutes (at most considering the Autobahn between Vienna and Graz) if their drivers ignored both laws and safety.

> My ex-CEO would floor it to get home much quicker than the train and have his secretary pay the speed-cam fines on his company's dime.

And people wonder why the government saw the need to introduce the ability to confiscate the vehicles [1] of such responsible individuals. As a motorcycle rider, the wanna be speed demons who have such important reasons for speeding are amongst the most dangerous, next to people unwilling to put their phone away. Also, a great statement on equality in our society. For some, a speeding fine can be devastating, for others, it's something their secretary handles.

Maybe your ex-CEO should spend a bit of their precious time to calculate how much they are really saving by speeding on that particular stretch of the Autobahn compared to sticking to the 100-130km/h speed limits.

> [...] average speed on the straights is somewhere around 100kmph [...]

On the straights, which on this route are limited to the area between Gloggnitz and Vienna Meidling, the Railjet averages roughly 150km/h. I got off one, only a few hours ago, so can attest to that.

Look, the fact that the Semmering base tunnel hasn't already been built is a failure of local government, not least because the Westbahn (between Salzburg and Vienna) is already far faster than the car [2] and we could have had the same. Interested whether your ex-CEO at least uses the train between Vienna and Salzburg, considering it's only about the speed for them?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmering_Pass

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-19/austria-a...

[2] 2h 18m vs 3h 15m

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by riffraff on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:19AM (#43641849)
In Hungary, and I'm pretty sure the answer is "corruption" here, but it was more of a rethorical device than an actual question :)
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by rickdeckard on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:53AM (#43642045)
Just a gut-feeling, but in country with high level of corruption I wouldn't feel comfortable to ride a train that accelerates >240km/h.

Chances are, robust process-structures and engineering capabilities didn't rank that high as decision-factors for supplier and operations companies...

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by tpm on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:42AM (#43641994)
The Alps is not the answer when you look at all the tunnels that are already there (both in Austria and Switzerland). Rather, for Austria the answer would be 'because it's a small country with one big city', so purely from the local perspective it doesn't make sense to build up high speed rail. And for that to change we would need an earnest EU-wide effort, possibly even a crossborder rail company, that would build the missing links and possibly even operate the crossborder trains. Because currently the infrastructure owners and big train operators are state owned and have little incentive to build and operate fast crossborder trains.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by BobaFloutist on Thursday April 10, 2025 @11:41AM (#43645041)
Ok I have this pet idea for solving the tricky balance between "express" lines and having enough stops: With electric trains it's pretty trivial to give each car it's own motor, so what if every time you approach a stop the front car detaches from the train and shifts to the stop and a car at the station accelerates and attaches to the front of the train (or vice versa), all without the train ever stopping? Maybe it would have to slow a bit to make the attachment/detachment smoother, but you'd still skip the boarding wait and if it was going from like 600-300kph that would still be vastly better than starting and stopping.

You would board the train and get on the car that detaches at your intended destination. In the case that they want to run fewer cars than there are stops, either they could alternate which car detaches so that a core car makes it from start to end, or people wanting to make the whole trip would have to change cars sometimes.

Is this impossible? Would it be implausibly expensive? Is it "just an engineering challenge" like hydrogen fuel-cell cars (I.E. we'll figure it out just as soon as we have a better alternative)? I have no idea, but it sure sounds cool to me, and it doesn't feel like it's in the realm of fantasy.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by prh21 on Thursday April 10, 2025 @12:59PM (#43645886)
I have thought about this as well. There are at least two issues:

1) The number of trains on the track would increase significantly making section control even harder. (In Germany this is one of the limiting factors for the overall capacity)

2) In order to attach/detach the front and back of the trains would have to be straight and vertical. At higher speeds this would lead to aerodynamic problems. You can see this issue when comparing local commuter trains which are vertical and often can be linked this way and high-speed trains which tend to have special aerodynamically shaped noses. The higher the speed the more elongated the nose.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by card_zero on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:51PM (#43647453)
Some precedence in the mail hook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcher_pouch

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by M95D on Friday April 11, 2025 @07:29AM (#43652679)
You want to switch tracks while the trains passes over them? Imagine what would happen if the switch fails!
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by the_mitsuhiko on Monday April 14, 2025 @06:17AM (#43679759)
> so what if every time you approach a stop the front car detaches from the train and shifts to the stop and a car at the station accelerates and attaches to the front of the train (or vice versa), all without the train ever stopping?

Has been done historically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by smcl on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:07AM (#43641764)
We don't have a network quite like the Shinkansen or the Chinese one, but you've linked an enormous article with dozens of high-speed lines and suggested that it's "very uncommon" for speeds beyond 240km/h (which seems pretty arbitrary speed). That's pretty misleading IMO, and anyone who would scan through it or who took a glance at https://openrailwaymap.org with the "Max Speeds" style will see a lot of the major metros in the biggest countries are connected with high-speed rail.

Rail is undoubtedly vital for the future and we should always be pushing for more, but I think it's ok to step back and appreciate that high-speed rail (and rail in general) in the EU is so much further ahead than the USA, even if it does still lag behind Japan and China.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by relistan on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:26AM (#43641537)
In live in Ireland where there is hardly any rail, despite once having the densest network in Europe. Would love to see further state investment here as well. Ireland is small enough that it should be possible to be in Dublin from either Cork, Galway, or Limerick in an hour.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by rsynnott on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:44AM (#43641630)
There’s a plan to build a Cork-Dublin-Belfast high speed (300km/h standard) line, but it seems unlikely to happen. There’s a more feasible-looking plan to upgrade Dublin-Cork to 200km/h (high-ish speed?); that seems likely to happen now.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by igleria on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:01AM (#43641735)
As someone looking to move to notDublinButClose, I hope you get that wish!
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by pm215 on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:37AM (#43641598)
Mmm, when I took a train based holiday in Ireland a few years back the rail map did strike me as rather withered. You wouldn't really want to try to go from Ballina to Sligo by train these days, although you technically could...
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mrweasel on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:35AM (#43641582)
Exactly, high speed rail is a nice option, but it's not really widely available. I needed to go to Warsaw, 1200km away, I wanted to go by train, but I don't have that kinda time. It's either 17 hours, half of which is going to be in a bus anyway. An alternative route had me take a ferry, extending the travel time to almost two days.

Taking a plane was cheaper and took three hours and given that airport security, at least in one direction is basically non-existing you just show up 20 minutes before your plane leaves.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by d--b on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:37AM (#43641592)
France truly has awesome trains though. Main criticism is that it lacks routes that don't go through Paris (like Lyon-Bordeaux, or Marseille-Bordeaux). But I live close to Marseille and it takes me 7 hours to go see my father who lives in Cherbourg (with a 1-hour connection in Paris, and one of the train being local). Coompared to 1200km of driving and zero planes.

And boy, don't get me started on the Eurostar. It's expensive sure, but 2 hours-ish to go from London to Paris is ludicrous.

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by fgeiger on Thursday April 10, 2025 @06:55AM (#43642668)
The centralization of train infrastructure in France is especially annoying for someone arriving from the North or East trying to travel towards the South. That Paris does not have a proper rail connection between its various high speed terminals baffles me.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mytailorisrich on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:25AM (#43641530)
As distance grows cost really becomes prohibitive and flying also becomes faster.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by riffraff on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:11AM (#43641787)
sure, that's why I mentioned "<600km", which is a distance covering many connections in Europe. E.g. Paris-Milan, Amsterdam-Berlin, Budapest-Vienna, London-Brussels, Geneve-Genoa etc

These would be

* many hours by car * <3 hours by fast train * <1 hour in flight by plane

The flight time is offset by security controls and getting to/from the airport, so a fast train is a good alternative (not perfect, just good).

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by herbst on Thursday April 10, 2025 @05:34AM (#43642268)
There is also always the comfort factor. Increasing travel time by 25% or even more can be a non issue if I have high speed internet and proper food and drink service available.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by d--b on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:39AM (#43641607)
It's an investment though. Every part of France that's next to the high-speed train really blossomed.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mytailorisrich on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:58AM (#43641713)
In France pretty much anywhere near a high-speed train station becomes within convenient reach of Paris and so attracts a boom in second homes and hybrid/remote workers.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by enaaem on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:49AM (#43641656)
Different optimal solutions for different scenarios.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by 7bit on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:36AM (#43641586)
Not really. Flying is fast, but when you measure door to door, in distances of under 1000k, a high speed rail network would not be slower.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mytailorisrich on Thursday April 10, 2025 @03:38AM (#43641600)
Hence "as distance grows"...
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by gmueckl on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:07AM (#43641767)
But a 1000km radius around any major center in Europe covers a lot of potential destinations. I assume that a lot of people, especially in the US underestimate the density of Europe.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mytailorisrich on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:25AM (#43641883)
1000km is a stretch to set the threshold at which trains win on time. It is also costly, not least when you hit a mountain range... at some point you need to balance billions of euros vs saving an hour (or even less).
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by mike_hearn on Thursday April 10, 2025 @05:35AM (#43642272)
Is that always true? In France HSR stations are often like airports, way out of town and you have to get a taxi in/out of wherever you're going. And the rail network seems more exposed to mechanical breakdown in general. I don't have hard data but it feels to me like trains fail or get cancelled much more often than flights do, and when a flight does get cancelled it's usually due to some major failure that'd take out trains too (e.g. power failure).
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by plugger on Thursday April 10, 2025 @04:29AM (#43641911)
I took the TGV from Munich to Dijon with a train change in Strasbourg in December and we hit 315km/h on the Strasbourg to Dijon leg of the trip.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by rlpb on Thursday April 10, 2025 @05:44AM (#43642323)
> The presence of fast trains between two cities, on the scale of <600km, is transformative, as it becomes more convenient to take a train than to fly

I haven't found this to be true for London to Brussels. Eurostar terminals seem to operate like airports and require check-in two hours in advance, with airport style security. So I don't save time, and for me, my regional airport is much easier to reach than the Eurostar terminal.

I can believe it works better for "normal" train travel within the Schengen area, but I wonder: what are the security requirements then, if any?

Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by fgeiger on Thursday April 10, 2025 @06:49AM (#43642636)
There are next to no security checks on stations that I regularly use throughout Germany, the Netherlands, and Austria. I believe that French stations have a turnstile at the platform for TGV trains. Other than that, I know security checks only from Eurostar terminals at the Amsterdam, Brussels, and Paris stations.
Re:France's new high-speed train has Americans asking: Why c... by rsynnott on Thursday April 10, 2025 @08:56AM (#43643314)
> but I wonder: what are the security requirements then, if any?

None, mostly. You just get on the train.