They are taking from the system, yes. They are people who receive welfare, not parasites. People who emigrate illegally have committed a crime, they are not themselves a crime , they are not themselves illegal. The most we could stretch to would be "illegally present people." But going further and calling a group of people "illegals" removes the human aspect from the conversation and is therefore quite literally dehumanising.

> People who look at such things with "horror" dehumanize the conversation

A conversation is not a human so this point comes across as absurd. Could you rephrase it?

> It is like they bathe themselves in weakness and virtue signaling.

This point comes across as a vaccuous ad hominem, could you rephrase it?

> They hide from how cruel the world is

I can speak for myself and say that I am very much not doing that. I couldn't be more conscious of the fact that the last time language like this was normalised it lead to the deaths of millions of innocent people. This cannot happen again. It is purely the incredible cruelty of this world that drives me to say what I am saying.

I think you're missing GP's point. It's "illegals" that's arguably dehumanizing. Similar to "blacks" or "the blacks" versus "black people".

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with GP, but I've definitely picked up on racism from people who talk about "blacks" instead of black people, and the homophobia from people who talk about "the gays" instead of gay people.

The things they say consistently ratchet toward justifications for genocide rather than away from it, and that's how it works - one small step at a time, where people explain each one away as not that bad.

But each step is toward the day when you can say "... and therefore we must implement a final solution for the problem of illegals. I wish it didn't have to be this way, but they forced us to by poisoning and invading our country."

There are people who wait decades to legally get a visa, and all of the people who saunter over the border thinking they are above the law make a mockery of the people who do it the right way. While you keep imagining an unavoidable slippery slope to genocide, I will celebrate the return of the rule of law to immigration while making sure that it goes no further.

Where it becomes concerning is when this dehumanising language begins to creep in. When the administration begins talking about people as "vermin" it becomes very concerning.

Where the fear of Nazism comes in is when we see Nazi salutes and plans to move "the illegals" to purpose built camps outside of normal American jurisdiction in Guantanamo Bay.

We are closer than you think. All they need at this point is to start defying court orders and there are no more guardrails. None. They have the authority. They have the social permission structure. They have immunity from laws. They control the police and military. What's left?

If you disagree, please point to what would prevent this administration from carrying out a "final solution" against immigrants?

I'm just pointing out that the most plausible reason your fellow countrymen choose to call themselves "expats" wherever they go, is because the rhetoric in your country has dehumanized or made the word immigrants/illegal "dirty".

Not hard to imagine such rhetoric can lead to nastiness all around, ending even in violence against said group. If you don't mind that and see no problem with that, then of course there's absolutely no common ground for us to have any discussion on :)

Heh I guess you've never been subject to taunts such as "go back to your country illegal" or "you don't belong here!". Must be nice!

If you genuinely want to change my behaviour then please substantiate your claims, give arguments for the points you're making and speak to me like an individual rather than a hologram of whatever group you're projecting onto me.

I've read back on this exchange several times. I see that I am positing something about language and explaining my reasoning, then you're responding with cries about "word games" without saying anything of substance. Do you see the same thing? What are you trying to say and why?

I'm sorry that I assumed you belonged to a group on a political thread where everyone was trashing Trump. It was a dumb mistake to assume you are worried about the rise of the far right.

We don’t fight cruelty by sanitizing language or pretending reality isn’t what it is. We fight it by acknowledging hard truths and having the courage to address them honestly, not emotionally.

Illegals are your bikeshed.True moral and intellectual courage is needed on a different hill rn.

Dismissing an argument as “trivial” instead of refuting it is just a lazy way to avoid addressing uncomfortable realities. If this issue is so unimportant, why are you so bothered by it?

And what exactly is this “different hill” where true moral and intellectual courage is needed? You didn’t even say. Just throwing out vague moral superiority without naming a real issue is nothing but posturing.

If you actually have an argument, please make it. Otherwise, pretending hard conversations aren’t worth having is just an excuse to avoid them.

For example, whatever one thinks about US immigration policy (I think it’s utterly broken to the point of absurdity), a cursory attempt to figure out the approximate net number of illegal immigrants added during Biden’s tenure comes suggests that the net change was pretty small. It seems that there has been a trend toward net addition of illegal immigrants in the last few years that (a) is small compared to the total number in the US and (b) started well before the end of the last Trump administration.

I did find plenty of partisan sources trying to shock me with numbers of border encounters that contain many digits, but there doesn’t seem to be much explanation of why this is a useful statistic or to what extent Biden’s administration had much to do with it. (There was a program derisively referred to as “catch and release” that seems likely to have resulted in a temporary increase in “border encounters,” but I don’t see evidence that it had much effect on net illegal immigration.)

As for graft, I genuinely have no idea what you’re referring to.

In any case, until 2023, the number of asylum applications per year was pretty low.

Since President Biden took office in January 2021, the U.S. has experienced a significant increase in illegal border crossings. Reports indicate that there have been approximately 8 million "encounters" at the U.S.-Mexico border during his tenure, a substantial rise compared to previous administrations. This surge is notably higher than the figures recorded during the Trump administration, which saw approximately 2.4 million encounters over four years.

For graft I was referring to the continual mismanagement of funds by Federal Departments. - An estimated $236 billion in improper payments were made, encompassing over-payments, underpayments, and payments lacking proper documentation. - The DOD hasn't passed an audit in in 7 years! We can not account for our spending or our military assets. - The whole US Aid thing is also part of that graft. US dollars going to questionable endeavors to enrich a few.

There are many more examples from FEMA and other organizations. The examples illustrate a systemic issue with the federal governments financial management.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy_of_the_Joe_... https://www.gao.gov/blog/federal-government-made-236-billion... https://www.myjournalcourier.com/opinion/article/commentary-...

You realize that tons of industries directly support illegal immigration by hiring said illegals right? All of agribusiness, nearly all restaurants, warehouses, meat packing etc. etc. Have you ever stopped to wonder why we don't throw the business owners in jail for this? We would stop illegal immigration overnight if we jailed the actors driving the demand but we never do, and this is bipartisan.

Capitalism is addicted to cheap labor, and it benefits from the demonization and criminalization of the immigrants as it makes them even cheaper and easier to exploit. So sure, demonize illegals all you want, you're playing the exact role the oligarchs want you to to deflect attention from them.

He was a good (not great) president in unprecedented bad times. He's no FDR but "inaction" would have had America in a truly awful situation. So where did all his "useless leader" narrative come from? Did people really get that brainwashed from one bad night as the proceeding precedent is spouting nonsense on the daily?

You kinda make a good point regarding Covid, but at the same time, I think the action he took there was basically what any non-lunatic would do. It wasn't like he had some massive amazing plan and he actioned it. He just stopped the ignorance of previous administration.

WRT Ukraine, "letting them stand strong" wasn't strong enough. The delays and lack of significant support is, I believe, what has caused the war to drag on. It's like there being a person with cancer, and rather than giving them enough chemo to kill the cancer, you give them just enough that the cancer has difficulty spreading.

What was necessary was a conclusive coordinated action among allies, so that isn't entirely Biden's fault, but everything did seem haphazard.

Also, being in Australia, I think from an economic standpoint, you are overstating the easing of the economy. Everyone has faced some level of inflation, but when I go to the US, it seems to me that "real" inflation has hit you more than other countries I've visited.

Trump does an amazing job messaging. Sure, 99% of what he says is either a lie senile ramblings, but he’s out there all the time. A social media POTUS indeed.

Another data point is when many other politicians have tried to be like Trump, they have lost. We’ll just have to see what happens in 2 and 4 years.