Also, the government is here to run services, for us, with the money we give it in the form of taxes.
Removing all government services in order to save money (and provide tax cuts to the 0.1% richest people and corps.) seems to be based in the belief that we are here to serve the people at the top. This is not the spirit of democracy.
Another notable fact is that the current leadership consists of people who are not known for healthy governance providing care and benefit for many. They are known for maximizing extraction, and shocking lack of compassion and understanding.
Besides the open racism and sadistic dickishness. Which, to be fair, we’re a part of the hatred and fear-based platform.
Such a minor case of course. But this is a microcosm of the entire problem. No one cares, no one is incentivized, no one represents the taxpayer. How does a US politician on a $175k salary become worth $80 million after 30 years in congress? The system is rigged, and the majority of the American people see themselves as suckers and are tired of it.
Which politician are we talking about here? Or are we being generic? From what I've seen, the majority of people in Congress started off rich because, well, you need to be rich (or at least rich-adjacent) to even consider running.
The only places that have him in the 10s of $M bracket look like spam content farms who've stolen the majority of their content from Wikipedia.
[0] https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/charles-schume...
[1] https://www.thisnation.com/politics/people/chuck-schumer-net...
Nowhere did I mention that accountability for government spending is a bad thing or that government spending is not out of control. Especially with military contracts.
Of course we should address overspending. Of course we should have accountability. Of course we should end the brazen insider trading, and end citizens united, and reform campaign financing.
Defunding USAID, defunding Medicare, deregulating profits on medications, defunding NPR etc. are none of these things and we all know it.
The Pentagon has been failing audit after audit. How come we are not starting with that? (Rhetorical question).
Subsidies for industries that don’t need subsidies.
Let’s not pretend that the waste is in the essential historically underfunded services.
EM or DT do not have the authority to reverse that funding decision outside the democratic / congressional process.
So what keeps Trump from unilaterally deciding not to spend money duly appropriated by congress?
I had to think about this.
What's the point/goal of giving the power of the purse to Congress if it's actually just a slush fund?
If Congress can allocate money for the courts, but the executive is the one tasked with execution (DOJ) and decided not spend that, we are saying there is no real need to balance power.
So if there's no authority to direct spending, what prevents the executive from spending money on replacing the courts and Congress?
Congress does have the authority to direct spending, but doesn’t always do so.
Here’s an example appropriation for USAID:
> development assistance
> For necessary expenses to carry out the provisions of sections 103, 105, 106, 214, and sections 251 through 255, and chapter 10 of part I of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, $3,000,000,000
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/8771...
If you look at the foreign assistance act it’s extremely broad. That’s how you end up with USAID giving money to AFL-CIO to fund labor movements in Bangladesh. They get three billion dollars to spend however they can creatively fit under the general categories of things like “education.” So what supervisory role has Congress really left itself over that money?
Let's assume it is all one giant slushfund for the executive. What now enables checks on the slush funds use?
If Congress says "here's 10 billion to spend on X and Y but not on Z. And the executive says "nah, I'm going to actually not spend it on X, but Y and Z sure." So Congress says "ok here's half as much so you can't spend it on Z "
Executive replies "now I spend it all on Z"
Congratulations you've discovered a defunding spiral I guess?
My point is that, having given a large slush fund to USAID with only vague guidance on how to spend it, they’ve put the ball in the President’s court. The President isn’t obligated to spend the money on the priorities career USAID people want to spend it on. He can spend it on whatever smart lawyers can justify as being within the broad terms of the corresponding appropriation bills. Congress never specifically appropriated money for grants to bankroll left wing labor organizations in Bangladesh. The executive did that and the executive can undo that. And they can see where they stand in terms of total program funding after all that’s done.
And it’ll take time to see whether he’s going to end up spending less than appropriated for statutory programs, such that there’s an impoundment. Remember, USAID isn’t going away, it’s keeping 600 or so mission critical employees.
Right, he tried that last term with the wall and didn't win in the courts.
> My point is that, having given a large slush fund to USAID with only vague guidance on how to spend it,
How certain are you that it's as vague as you claim?
>The President isn’t obligated to spend the money on the priorities career USAID people want to spend it on. He can spend it on whatever smart lawyers can justify as being within the broad terms of the corresponding appropriation bills.
I think it's a large assumption to say the POTUS can spend the money for an organization on lawers meant to defend dismantling the organization.
What statues do you believe enable this? >Congress never specifically appropriated money for grants to bankroll left wing labor organizations in Bangladesh. The executive did that and the executive can undo that.
Not familiar with the specifics you are waving at, do you have more information?
> And it’ll take time to see whether he’s going to end up spending less than appropriated for statutory programs, such that there’s an impoundment.
So logically the lawyers mentioned earlier by you, could demand a fee sum large enough to ensure the spending, and try to prevent any impoundment?
> Remember, USAID isn’t going away, it’s keeping 600 or so mission critical employees.
You don't have to take all the water away from a tree to kill it, but take away enough water, for long enough time, and it can only wither and rot.
Sidestepping this, which is happening left and right currently, is democracy failing.
People are so wrapped up in this that they are forgetting the information commons are so polluted with rage and nonsense that they think democracy is failing.
What is happening is things are being indiscriminately torn down.
Maybe it's for the best, but as there's no analysis, people are rightfully concerned about what is happening.
“And I actually checked with him a few times [and] said ‘are you sure?’” The answer was yes, he said.
“And so we’re shutting it down,” Musk said.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/executive-order-10...
And the Trump administration was smart to start with USAID. It's been an arm of the CIA since it's origination. Look at the role it played in the Vietnam War - arming of a militia under the guise of "development". It also was the org that funded the fake "polio vaccination campaign" in the search for Bin Laden.
And it's funny to see the pearl clutching going on when only 3-4 years ago there were numerous press reports on just how unaccountable USAID was to the federal government.
> root out corruption and waste, fraud, and abuse
That is not what they are doing by most accounts.
The same reason that one of the DOGE youth got fired, not because he is a racist, but because his racism remark got caught.
Let's wait and see for the audits of NGOs! Your opinion says it isn't working, but my opinion says it is.
21 % Social Security 15 % National Defense 14 % Health 13 % Net Interest 13 % Medicare 9 % Income Security 6 % Veterans Benefits and Services 3 % Education, Training, Employment, and Social Services 2 % Natural Resources and Environment 2 % Transportation 2 % Other
To get the level of cuts they want they cannot legally do it without Congress.
[1]: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
2. It is of legal question whether Musk should have been confirmed by congress given the the access and power he is wielding.
Yes, Trump was democratically elected and yes, Musk was appointed, but democracy requires the rule of law to be followed or the whole thing starts to fall apart.
Personally, I like the bold approach. I really dislike Trump and would never ever consider voting for the guy. This isn’t the outcome that I hoped for, but I appreciate that he’s trying to do something at least, even if it fails. Only 34% of Americans trust the government for a lot of valid reasons. We’ve been at war for pretty much forever. We keep innerworkings of government secret for ‘national security’. And, I have never liked how we influence elections and governments around the world. It always felt so gross.
I’ve done work with USAID and have seen first hand their ineffective humanitarian aid programs. It’s not surprising that they haven’t made much progress in over 50 years when you consider the perverse incentives.
This is the system.
You don't.
> Just because you say it's illegal doesn't mean it is.
It's illegal to the point it even violates the US constitution.
> Biden unilaterally cancelled a trillion dollars of college debt, which the Supreme Court said was illegal, (...)
The Supreme Court ruled that the Department of Education didn't had the authority to enact such a large program and needed to seek approval from congress, and the rule was called by Trump's appointees.
Biden's student loan debt programs still went ahead because, unlike the original claim, the department of education already was running student debt forgiveness programs before and during Trump's first term, and those existing programs were never questioned as being illegal or unconstitutional.
The fact that you are trying to compare this event to Trump's string of illegal and unconstitutional efforts to shut down and dismantle the whole federal government, not to mention the whole sabotage campaign involving threatening long-standing allies of military invasion and economic war, speaks volumes of how disingenuous you're being.
> The Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998, 22 U.S.C. 6501 et seq.) established USAID as its own agency. In a section titled “Status of AID” (22 U.S.C. 6563) it states:
>> (a) In general
>> Unless abolished pursuant to the reorganization plan submitted under section 6601 of this title, and except as provided in section 6562 of this title, there is within the Executive branch of Government the United States Agency for International Development as an entity described in section 104 of title 5.
Because the agency is an independent agency, it cannot be interrupted without going through the appropriate channel.
[0] https://www.justsecurity.org/107267/can-president-dissolve-u...
The access that DOGE and Elon has is strictly legal via standard government processes.
I guess one positive out of all of this is that Americans will (hopefully) actually learn something about how the government works. I have the benefit of having worked in DC for a long time but every American should have a passing familiarity with this. Misconceptions are rife.
Nope, you are mistaken. The EO gave access for DOGE and unclassified systems. Treasury has quite a bit that is classified. This is why the lawsuits to stop them have merit.
https://home.treasury.gov/about/general-information/orders-a...
I am sure the trivial act of granting that access was done given that the people now in charge have that authority.
Again, this ignorance of the basic mechanics of US government is discrediting to valid arguments. You are being manipulated to look like you have no idea what you are talking about, which will discredit your valid arguments by association.
This is my world, I know how it works.
"Trust me bro"
Since I'm pretty sure you're wrong, and I actually chatted about my questions with people who operate in the space, let me add more information to the conversation.
First, governing documents:
Executive Order 13526 - Governs classification of national security information, including Top Secret, Secret, and Confidential levels. - Who Can Override? President - Override Process: The President can declassify or reclassify any classified information at will.
Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA) - Controls handling of classified information in legal proceedings. - Who Can Override? Federal Courts (Judges) - Override Process: Judges can determine whether classified evidence can be disclosed in court.
National Industrial Security Program (NISP) (Executive Order 12829) - Regulates access to classified information by contractors and private entities. - Who Can Override? President, Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency (DCSA) - Override Process: The President can issue waivers; DCSA can grant or deny access based on security clearances.
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) - Regulates intelligence gathering on foreign entities and individuals. - Who Can Override? FISA Court (FISC) - Override Process: Judges can approve or disapprove classified surveillance requests.
Atomic Energy Act (AEA) of 1954 - Governs access to classified nuclear information ("Restricted Data"). - Who Can Override? President, Department of Energy (DOE), Congress - Override Process: The President and DOE can declassify certain nuclear information. Congress can pass legislation altering classification.
Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978 - Regulates access to presidential records, including classified materials. - Who Can Override? Incumbent President - Override Process: The sitting President can restrict or release prior administration records.
Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) - Allows public access to government records but exempts classified materials. - Who Can Override? Agencies, Courts, President - Override Process: Agencies can deny requests, courts can order disclosure, and the President can override agency decisions.
Department of Defense (DoD) Information Security Program (DoDM 5200.01) - Regulates access to military and defense-related classified information. - Who Can Override? Secretary of Defense, President - Override Process: The Secretary of Defense can restrict access within DoD, and the President can override classifications.
While a President could certainly grant access to classified (and sensitive) systems, there are still laws that prevent hostile takeovers like what Elon Musk and DOGE have done (which, you recall, were explicitly given access by executive order to unclassified systems).
The laws, acts, and regs I would have expected you to cite include:
- FISMA (2014)
- CISA (2015)
- EO 13800
- Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act (2004)
- CFAA (Title 18, USC Sec.1030)
Can the president override these restrictions? Not directly -- while the prez has authority over classified information and executive agencies, federal laws explicitly prohibit unauthorized access to IT systems, even by high-ranking officials such as DOGE. IT systems within agencies like the Treasury, OPM, and USAID operate under internal security policies and congressional oversight. A president attempting wholesale access to these systems without proper legal justification can lead to legal challenges (as it has), congressional investigations, and potential violations of federal law.
Some of the policies in these agencies, based on decades of experience in securing the systems, are
- DoD Instruction 8500.01 (Cybersecurity) - established RBAC and principle of least privillege
- DoD Instruction 8530.01 (Cybersecurity Activities Support to DoD Information Network Operations) -- monitoring of privileged users
- Army Regulation (AR) 25-2 (Army Cybersecurity) - MFA requirements -- Army specific, but similar regs at other agencies.
Now, what if someone with authority grants unauthorized access? You're talking espionage act now. CFAA too. Privacy act. Insider threat (EO 13587). Granting unauthorized access to federal IT systems, classified data, or sensitive records is a serious crime. If national security is compromised, penalties become even harsher under espionage laws.
Now, if you're actually in this world, I welcome your substantive additions to the conversation.
Have you been living under a rock?
Because this thread is taking about US Aid. Unfortunately for everyone, this is not an isolated case.
https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-elon-musk-usaid...
Funny enough, that also models the reason why people are in shock? "How could this happen, all the posts, media, and polls I saw were predicting a Harris win? Was it the Russians? The aliens?". Yet here someone responding honestly, and they get downvoted to hell and disappear. Next cycle it will be the same, "how could this happen, everything I read and everyone I asked all agreed with ... and then ..."
Or perhaps you'd be surprised to learn they aren't eating pets in Springfield?
Oh sure, anytime
> Good faith requires facts, which this current administration does not use.
I don't know, the OP (or GP?) post said they were wanted to continue discussing the issue in good faith. I'll take them at their word until I see them saying something else, what else should we do, downvote and flag everyone to hell? And it seems it's not about the administration having good or bad faith or good or bad facts but the OP presenting their case.
> Or perhaps you'd be surprised to learn they aren't eating pets in Springfield?
There are farms around there, for sure. Some chickens or cows may even have names and eventually get eaten, too. Who knows. I had never been, but was just South of it, in Yellow Springs. A nice little town and big a dairy farm with their own ice-cream and rides and everything.
So your first part of the comment could have been an exercise towards food faith, and your latter part, perhaps mildly excusable as an ill attempt at humor in normal times, is for most who read it an attempt to muddy the very clear facts that Trump lies all the time.
Sorry, I don't follow all the Trump's doings or saying or what others comment about them. So I simply don't know about it one way or the other. But I have been near Springfield, so I said what I knew about it personally. Have you ever been there?
However, it does seem like you're angry and trying to insult me. That's ok, too. I don't mind, I can take it, just has to be acknowledged and said publicly. No need to beat around the bush with hidden allegations or anything. For one, I don't remember the OP or the GP mentioning Springfield at all. You brought it into the conversation. Which is totally fine, of course, I even gave you upvotes.
https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-polit...
> Claiming the new Haitian community threatened “the good White residents” of Springfield, Blood Trump members descended on the city in August during Springfield’s annual Jazz & Blues festival, marching downtown while displaying guns and waving swastika flags.
That's horrible. The city sued them, hopefully they all land in jail for a long time.
> “the Blood Tribe made good on those threats,” noting that the city and its residents received at least 33 bomb threats in subsequent weeks
That looks like a slam dunk case, hopefully the city judges and prosecutors there have no problem handling it.
I saw the mention about Temporary Protected Status of the immigrants at the end. I had no idea that existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_protected_status.
I'd would think the fact that disgusting group marched there and made bomb threats would make the community and the government protect them even more. The city launched a law suite after all.
To me, the counterfactual clearly points to no.
The Harris/Trump debate gave a set of clear accusations on film, so many that the denizens of the internet made several clever remixes to fight bullies with humor.
Agree you're probably right. I never watched that debate, thanks for the clip. I won't watch it further I didn't like either one of them too much.
I did like the remix though, I am sure there are plenty of more of those.
But it seems that group is being sued and that's hopefully they lose and that'll be the best outcome here.
> In Comments
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes
> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
> Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
This isn't comprehensive, but it is enough to identify what you and I may take for granted from others in the community. If you feel I have abused good faith in my comments, I request you delineate what, exactly, you feel is not in good faith.
Winning the popular vote does not make you dictator. It makes you president within the existing laws.
You want to change the way things are done? That's fine. You have a mandate to do so based on the vote? Also fine. Do it within the existing laws.
There are laws in a number of areas (firing federal employees, impoundment, spoils system, probably others that don't come to my mind immediately) that Trump seems to be violating. He doesn't get to do that. He has to stay within the law, because it's the law that makes him president instead of "most popular guy this year".
And it doesn't seem to be that he missed a few steps. He doesn't seem to care about the law at all. That's democracy failing - having a president who thinks he can do whatever he wants, and the law doesn't bind him. That's a president who's trying to be a king.
Now, that's kind of a "vibe" thing. It's not one action; it's more a perception of the cumulation of all his actions. Which means that other people can perceive it differently from how I do, because they assign different weights to his actions. But to me, the trend of the whole is troubling.
Where is democracy failing?