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Re:A computer can never be held accountable by elihu on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @08:31AM (#42932061)
The defense against this is to have very clear legal principles that identify the person or people fully accountable for the machine's decisions.

Admittedly this may result in some strange results if followed to its logical conclusion, like a product manager at a self-driving car company being the recipient of ten thousand traffic tickets.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by lenerdenator on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @09:52AM (#42933079)
> The defense against this is to have very clear legal principles that identify the person or people fully accountable for the machine's decisions.

Most legal principles are designed to reduce liability. That's the whole point of incorporation, for example.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by dsr_ on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @10:05AM (#42933226)
No, legal principles are designed to specify liability.
Re:A computer can never be held accountable by TeMPOraL on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @10:49AM (#42933929)
This. I'd go as far as to say that the law mostly tries to conserve liability, in the "energy conservation" sense. Once harm is defined and quantified, the consequences have to be discharged somewhere, and there's tons of rules that try to sensibly distribute them among parties involved, while counteracting everyones' attempts at diffusing liability or redirecting it somewhere else.

On that note, after some time working in cybersec and GRC fields, I realized that cybersecurity is best understood in terms of liability management. This is what all the security framework certification and auditing is about, and this is a big reason security today is more about buying services from the right vendors and less about the hard tech stuff. Preventing a hack is hard. Making it so you aren't liable for the consequences is easier - and it looks like a network of companies interlinked with contracts that shift liability around. It's a kind of distributed meta-insurance (that also involves actual insurance, too).

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by jimbokun on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @02:51PM (#42937645)
> (that also involves actual insurance, too)

My eyes were opened to this when management wasn't just talking about deleting unneeded private data just as the right thing to do, but specifically how it could reduce our insurance premiums.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by TeMPOraL on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @06:29PM (#42940808)
In business, everything that can be ultimately always gets reduced to money. And in vast majority of cases, for ongoing business operations and events that don't directly hurt or kill people, it actually turns out fine.

The core insight that made me start to understand how companies see the world, was reading about ocean freight shipping. Specifically, what happens when there's a bad weather, or dangerous malfunction, or other such unexpected event, that throws some containers off the ship or forces the sailors to intentionally dump them, resulting in millions of dollars worth of cargo afloat in the middle the ocean.

What happens is, a whole lot of nothing. No one will actually bother to try and recover it. The cargo operators, ship owners, and owners of the actual cargo, will all file claims with their respective maritime insurance providers, and call it a day.

The same principle applies everywhere, including in cybersecurity. Past some point, trying to reduce the risk or shift the liability to somewhere else becomes more expensive than just insuring against the expected loss.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by ajb on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @10:00AM (#42933176)
Incorporation is to reduce liability for debt. It's not supposed to reduce liability for criminal negligence. Or other criminal offences.
Re:A computer can never be held accountable by lenerdenator on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @11:26AM (#42934503)
At least in the US, there's precious little difference. If a company is found guilty of a crime, the C-suite isn't thrown in prison; they pay a fine.

If a company is found to have committed a tort against a party, they pay damages.

There are exceptions (the Volkswagen diesel scandal comes to mind) but generally both punishments entail paying out a monetary amount that is often lower than the profit generated by the crime, often because of tort reform or because of fine amounts that are out-of-date with current corporate revenues.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by jjk7 on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @03:44PM (#42938332)
There was one banker imprisoned for the 2008 financial crisis, but he was hardly responsible.
Re:A computer can never be held accountable by DrillShopper on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @10:08AM (#42933249)
> The defense against this is to have very clear legal principles that identify the person or people fully accountable for the machine's decisions.

Be careful how hard you push for this - this is how the prosecutors in the Royal Mail fiasco drove postmasters out of business and drove a few to suicide.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by JTbane on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @02:55PM (#42937697)
That case was absolutely crazy, imagine getting accused of fraud and embezzlement just because of a computer bug.
Re:A computer can never be held accountable by Xmd5a on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @08:53AM (#42932329)
>identify the person or people fully accountable for the machine's decisions.

Which required more tech, not less.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by dartos on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @09:38AM (#42932871)
Not necessarily.

Tbh I’m in favor of holding C-suite responsible for the actions of their company, unless the company has extremely clear bylaws regarding accountability.

If, say, a health insurance provider was using an entirely automated claim review process that falsely denies claims, I think the C-level people should be responsible.

Re:A computer can never be held accountable by daveguy on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @09:07AM (#42932498)
> product manager at a self-driving car company being the recipient of ten thousand traffic tickets.

I'm the case of self driving cars, the company itself could be held liable. Everyone invested in the company who puts a bad product in the market should be financially impacted. The oligarchy we are heading for wants no accountability or oversight -- all profit, no penalty.