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Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by brazzy on Sunday February 02, 2025 @07:03AM (#42908134)
> Interesting to think about what structures human intelligence has that these models don't.

Constant direct feedback from the real world and the ability to continuously integrate it to update the model. That's probably the big one.

My pet theory is that having a body is actually an integral part of intelligence, to provide the above, as well as an anchor for a sense of self

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by mdp2021 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:20AM (#42908454)
> having a body

You do not need sensorial feedback to do math. And you do not need full sensors to have feeback - one well organized channel can suffice for some applications.

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by astrange on Monday February 03, 2025 @07:45AM (#42917643)
You need sensor feedback to learn new math and talk to other mathematicians.
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by mdp2021 on Monday February 03, 2025 @09:32AM (#42918538)
To learn new math, a professional mathematician foremostly just thinks further (it's its job); to discuss with other entities (and acquire new material), textual input and outputs suffice.
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by astrange on Monday February 03, 2025 @10:54PM (#42927690)
Hmm, the ones I know do a fair amount of multimodal discussion. (Shapes for instance.)
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by mdp2021 on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @02:57AM (#42929442)
Which you can still acquire as compact data (like SVG)

Which to machines is direct information, as opposed to noisy data requiring complex processing to extract the relevant content.

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by buovjaga on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:29AM (#42908516)
You might get a kick out of this essay by Robert Epstein from 2016: https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-informati... (The empty brain - Your brain does not process information, retrieve knowledge or store memories. In short: your brain is not a computer)
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by enugu on Sunday February 02, 2025 @11:47AM (#42909775)
There is a whole genre of essays like this talking about behaviour in a human specific way. But, I wish they engaged with the notions of the Church-Turing thesis and the Universal Turing Machine which indicates that any behaviour following standard physics principles is in fact computable.

(FWIW, I dont think that humans can be reduced to computing, but the Church-Turing thesis is a powerful counterargument which more biologists and psychologists should engage with).

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by echoangle on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:59PM (#42910337)
I stopped reading before reaching 2/3 of it but the start is already strawman after strawman (or misunderstanding to be generous).

I don’t think most people believe the brain is made up of a discrete Processing part that accesses information from a memory part that’s encoded in binary there. But just because the brain doesn’t contain a literal encoding of something in binary doesn’t mean the neurons don’t store the information.

If you download the weights of an LLM, you’re not going to find the text it can output „from memory“ anywhere in the file, but the weights still encode the information and can retrieve it (with some accuracy).

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by drdaeman on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:40PM (#42912116)
Maybe I misunderstood it, but I feel that it's a weird article, because it fails to establish any vocabulary and then seem to uses words in uncertain ways, as if constructing the narrative by specifically crafting (but never truly explaining/define) some model that's not true, but presenting the argument with significantly expanded scope. Drastically reduced (which is not really correct, but may help me to convey my general impression/feelings only) it's kinda sorta like-ish "we aren't doing it the way our computers do, thus the information processing metaphor is wrong".

Like when talking about that experiment and an image of the dollar bill, it never talks about what's an "image", just states that there wasn't one stored in a brain, in "any sense". And then goes on describing the idea that seem to match the description of a "mental image" from cognitive science.

As I [very naively] get it... Information theory is a field of mathematics. Unlike all those previous concepts like humours, mechanical motions or electric activities, math is here to establish terminology and general principles that don't have to fundamentally change if^W when we learn more. And that's why it got stuck.

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by enugu on Sunday February 02, 2025 @11:53AM (#42909825)
This has been pursued by researchers like Rodney Brooks. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by asah on Sunday February 02, 2025 @01:15PM (#42910468)
So quadriplegics aren't sentient ?
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by brazzy on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @09:02AM (#42932428)
Your statement, not mine. And I wrote intelligence, not sentience.

People who become quadriplegic as adults (or older children) have already developed intelligence before.

My theory (which I have not researched in any way) implies that someone born fully quadriplegic would be severely impaired in developing intelligence. Sight and hearing are of course also important sources of feedback, the question is whether they are sufficient.

Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by whattheheckheck on Monday February 03, 2025 @09:40AM (#42918610)
Have you ever read about Hellen Keller and her experience before her discovery (being taught) language
Re:Chatbot Software Begins to Face Fundamental Limitations by brazzy on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @08:54AM (#42932343)
Only about how she experienced that discovery.

But then, she lost her sight and hearing at the age of 19 months, so after lots of cognitive development had only taken place.