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Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @01:31PM (#42900783)
First week we had mass deportation, second week we've heard of the building of concentration camps for undesirables, and now the modern version of book burning. There's something different about this republican government.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by matwood on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:37PM (#42901406)
First week they also declared banned books a ‘hoax’. So maybe getting rid of existing information takes longer than a week.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by southernplaces7 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:23PM (#42901284)
>second week we've heard of the building of concentration camps for undesirables

Mind posting a reference for such a declaration?

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by jamroom on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:31PM (#42901355)
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by johnneville on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:30PM (#42901354)
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by southernplaces7 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:59PM (#42901635)
I assumed they were referring to something like this but wanted to be sure. It's also way the fuck off base to call this a concentration camp for undesirables with all the insinuations of Nazism that come with that. This kind of Trump = Hilter hyperbole at the drop of a hat hazes all the very real and heavy criticisms that can be made of this administration.

Gitmo being used as a transit camp for deported illegal immigrants is not at all as say, Sachsenhausen or Dachau being used to illegally dumb german citizens and torture them there indefinitely because they criticized the ruling regime. When Trump starts trying to dump opposing intellectuals, Hollywood producers and "wayward" reporters or writers into Gitmo for indefinite detention, then we can make some firmer claims of literal dictatorship.

If anything, the use of Gitmo under Bush II, when actual U.S citizens were held there indefinitely under terrorism charges was closer to the mark than this now.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by anigbrowl on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:15PM (#42901800)
Concentration camps have been operated by many regimes, not just the nazis. That equation is in your head.

I am however personally pessimistic about the probity of a camp run on a remote island without any oversight. And I think insisting that everyone wait until after a dictatorship is fully embedded and engaging in retaliation against political enemies (after making open threats to do so) is strategically stupid, much like saying you need to let an asailant get in 4 or 5 punches just to be sure the first two weren't accidental.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by khazhoux on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:31PM (#42901951)
> Concentration camps have been operated by many regimes, not just the nazis. That equation is in your head.

They may been operated by hundreds of regimes, but the term is 100% identified with Nazis now. It's a rather daft statement to say that these are not equated.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by BeetleB on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:28PM (#42902544)
> They may been operated by hundreds of regimes, but the term is 100% identified with Nazis now

The reason this is being discussed here is because it isn't.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by southernplaces7 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:41PM (#42902642)
>I think insisting that everyone wait until after a dictatorship is fully embedded and engaging in retaliation against political enemies

You realize this is a democratically elected government whose leader was already president once without a dictatorship?

Just a couple of weeks ago a federal court stopped his plans to end birthright citizenship in its tracks, and what was Trump's response? "We'll appeal it in court".... Oh damn! all those dictatoring plans stopped by the monstrous hurdle of constitutionally mandated judicial oversight.... You'd almost think he's not quite.... a dictator.

This kind of tedious hyperbole not only ran rampant before and during the first four years, it also made it harder to make genuine criticisms of Trump gain attention. With so much hysteria about every bullshit little thing being touted far and wide as an example of a 21st century Hitlerism, it's easy for the critics to be viewed as a laughing stock except in their own little echo chambers of like-thinkers.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by RealityVoid on Saturday February 01, 2025 @05:37PM (#42903169)
So, what would be the red line in the sand for you where you stop and say... "Aw, shit, this guy _really_ is fascist."

Because all I've been seeing so far were excuses, he won't do that's (that promptly were then done), contorsions to justify his insane dribble and complete disregard for the law.

This guy is going to destroy your country, and it's absolutely mind-boggling people are cheering him.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by pessimizer on Sunday February 02, 2025 @01:09AM (#42906386)
> This guy is going to destroy your country, and it's absolutely mind-boggling people are cheering him.

He was already president for four years, and the next four years were so bad for the world and the US that he was asked to come back overwhelmingly. Or it could just be because the Republicans run democratic primaries that party leadership can't just overrule or turn into a mockery, and the Democrats don't.

> insane dribble

"Drivel." It's a common error.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:39AM (#42907503)
I love how people keep saying he's disavowed project 2025 while he's in the process of implementing it.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:57PM (#42902802)
he pardoned the January 6 rioters that he sent to the capitol to stop the certification of the election. they can all walk free now including the ones who killed a police officer.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Terr_ on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:08PM (#42902344)
> It's also way the fuck off base to call this a concentration camp for undesirables with all the insinuations of Nazism that come with that.

Tell me, how many other governments can you list that planned to deport large numbers of people living in their country out to a special Island in order to take advantage of its extraterritorial legal limbo?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by hiharryhere on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:29PM (#42902551)
Not defending it… but Australia has done this for decades.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution

Most famously on Nauru https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Ce...

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by michaelhoney on Saturday February 01, 2025 @07:02PM (#42903941)
and it is absolutely fucked that we do it
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by southernplaces7 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:42PM (#42902659)
Comparing this to the Madagascar plan and the core aims of the regime behind it is even more the fuck off base than the original insinuation of the current plans for Gitmo being akin to a concentration camp for undesirables.

Truly, at least use some basic bloody comparative reasoning to formulate arguments.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Dalewyn on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:44PM (#42902668)
>how many other governments can you list that planned to deport large numbers of people living in their country

Most if not all of them.

You are conveniently leaving out the one very important detail that justifies the deportations: Illegal. These people getting deported are illegal aliens, they broke the law crossing the border illegally so they cannot complain about getting arrested, charged and convicted, and deported back where they came from. They have no right to be here.

What's worse, these initial rounds of deportations are prioritizing illegal aliens with violent criminal records. These people are factually the worst of the worst. Of fucking course we should and will deport them.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Terr_ on Saturday February 01, 2025 @05:01PM (#42902847)
> they broke the law crossing the border illegally

The majority here crossed legally and overstayed their visa. That's just basic table-stakes knowledge for this issue, please remember it. Bonus points if you know that overstaying is a civil infraction like a parking ticket, below the level of a misdemeanor.

> these initial rounds of deportations are prioritizing illegal aliens with violent criminal records.

That's what the professional liar says, but why would you trust him on that?

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-polit...

> These people are factually the worst of the worst.

How the hell can you "factually" know that when the Trump administration still won't even explain what criteria they are using!? (Even assuming they'll be making any honest effort at all.)

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by perihelions on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:12PM (#42902388)
- "german citizens"

I'm not sure what you intended with this phrasing, but it's a very wrong and provocative one (though you likely did not indent that). The Holocaust's victims were by and large not citizens of Nazi Germany. Jewish residents of Germany were stripped of citizenship in (as I understand) 1935—mirroring President Trump's promise to systematically strip citizenship of American-born, non-white immigrant descendants. Nazi-era Germans did not view German-born Jews as "citizens" by any possible torturing of that word. White nationalists, in the United States, do not view many non-whites as citizens of America, even if they were born American and lived their entire lives in America, as American citizens.

The distinction between "true citizens" / "external foreigners" is not a footnote to the Holocaust; it's the central thesis of German Nazism, that subgroups of people native to the German region were foreign aliens without true loyalty or allegiance.

(This more of a tangent, but the majority of the Holocaust's victims were not even German residents; they were captured and murdered from other European countries Nazi Germany invaded and ravaged. Auschwitz' victims, for instance, were almost entirely from Central and East Europe. The wording you chose, elevating the "citizen" above the "foreigner", as if concentration camps for foreigners is some second-class, not-100%-full-on-Nazi thing, is a disturbing language for one familiar with the German version).

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Spivak on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:16PM (#42902436)
I think you've associated the entirety of concentration camps with the one that's taught in WWII history. There are extermination camps where the goal is efficient mass-murder, forced labor camps where the goal is slavery, both of which are a kind of concentration camps which is simply a place where groups of people are illegally detained. Don't focus too hard on the illegal part because it's always legal in the state that does it. The Japanese internment camps the US used were concentration camps.

In a weird way the events of WWII saved the US from going down the same path because we were on it. Anything literally Hitler did became politically toxic and it's a bit worrying that this toxicity is wearing off. It kept us far away from the fence.

The thing that matters for concentration camps is large groups of related civilians detained to advance a political goal— to restore Germany to its former greatness or to make America great again.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by misnome on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:08PM (#42901735)
Did the Nazi program start at those levels? Or did it start with exactly this rhetoric and excuses?
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Terr_ on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:14PM (#42902415)
[delayed]
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by southernplaces7 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:45PM (#42902682)
The Nazi program of concentration camps and terror started almost immediately, and included an enormous amount of overt, obvious, very violent state repression against anyone at all who criticized the regime. This included sending them to the first camps, formed in 1933, right after Hitler's appointment, and openly torturing and beating people, or executing them extrajudicially.

None of anything from Trump's government is at all comparable so far and making such comparisons, aside from being a genuinely idiotic case of ideological exaggeration, is also an insult to real victims of real historical concentration camps and violent regimes.

For all the self-congratulatory patting on the back by many readers on HN about their "superior" intellectual reasoning, I see a remarkable abundance of largely failing at such reasoning when it comes to many comment threads and subjects on this site.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by misnome on Sunday February 02, 2025 @07:08AM (#42908160)
Wikipedia says it was two months after Hitler’s appointment before the first camps were established.

It’s been less than two weeks and you are already doing the groundwork to preemptively excuse it.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by forgetfreeman on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:19PM (#42901839)
If you find yourself in a situation where you feel compelled to quibble over fine details of the definition of terms like " concentration camp", this is an indication that you are desperately compromised in some way.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:46PM (#42902080)
the parallel with the Nazis for me is the building of it on foreign soil instead of somewhere with judicial oversight - even while they own the supreme court and Congress.

that and the Nazi salute at the inauguration.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by timeon on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:22AM (#42907415)
What would you expect when people are even arguing against their eyes about Fascist salute.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:46PM (#42901507)
as posted by two others - hotel Gitmo on sands is expanding.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by glowiefedposter on Monday February 03, 2025 @07:54AM (#42917715)
next week they will reserve rooms for you and the other HN bad posters there
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by tdeck on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:41PM (#42901451)
Didn't you get the memo? Trump won 49.9% of the popular vote. That means we all need to pretend this is normal and OK now.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by coolspot on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:19PM (#42901847)
Just as everyone pretended it is normal and ok to decriminalize everything and tear down statues over last 4 years.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by tdeck on Saturday February 01, 2025 @03:25PM (#42901909)
You're still upset about the statues?
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by pjc50 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:43PM (#42902664)
People are weirdly defensive of the traitor statues.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by terrabiped on Saturday February 01, 2025 @05:21PM (#42903037)
In the Bay Area we had the statues of Ulysses Grant [1], Francis Key [2], and Junipero Serra [3] removed. This isn't even the full list of all the monuments that were labeled "racist" or "oppressive". All was done a couple of years ago.

Are these the traitors you're talking about?

Even if people couldn't dig up anything against the person, the monument could simply be linked to the "wrong part of our history" and be removed, like the Thomas Fallon's statue in San Jose [4]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bust_of_Ulysses_S._Grant_(San_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Francis_Scott_Key_(S...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Junípero_Serra_(San_...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fallon#Legacy

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by saagarjha on Sunday February 02, 2025 @03:37AM (#42907172)
> Ulysses Grant

> On June 19, 2020, the monument was toppled by protestors and defaced with the words "Adios America" in red paint as a response to Grant's brief ownership of a slave.

> Francis Key

> The statue was toppled by vandals on June 19, 2020, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd.

> Juniperro Serra

> Other statues of Junípero Serra were involved as the protests expanded to include monuments of individuals associated with the controversy over the genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas.

> Thomas Fallon

> Fallon remains a controversial figure in San Jose's history, owing to his role in the American Conquest of California.

Besides Francis Key, which appears to have been vandalized rather than something that people specifically wanted removed, the rest of them do actually have reasons they were taken down? You can disagree with those but they do exist.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by terrabiped on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:42PM (#42912135)
My response was a counterexample to the the parent comment which implied that the only statues being removed are the statues of the traitors. None of the people I listed were traitors.

For the people I listed, I'd encourage you to read more about them and form your own opinion instead of just quoting back from the links I shared earlier.

There is very little reason to believe that Serra treated the indigenous people differently from the rest of his mission or that he didn't believe in what he was preaching. Similarly, almost nothing is known about why Grant had William Jones for a year, but Grant's character had been proven through years of real action - fighting the war and, later, fighting the KKK.

People just clung to some speculative theories, interpreted them in the least charitable way, and get offended by it. While everyone else sees that the topic was labeled as "racist" or "controversial" and tries to distance themselves from it.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by saagarjha on Sunday February 02, 2025 @09:13PM (#42914196)
I don't think you want to hear my opinions of those people, though I will agree that they are probably not traitors.
[dead]
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by krapp on Saturday February 01, 2025 @05:00PM (#42902837)
They were traitors.

They waged war against the United States, attacking the seams of this very country's unity, which by even the Constitution's purposely narrow definition, is treason.

They were pardoned for their treason because they were traitors.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Dalewyn on Saturday February 01, 2025 @05:10PM (#42902920)
Laws and Constitution amendments were written and passed to exclude ex-Confederates from the democratic process, but they were rendered moot once everyone calmed down and realized it was better for the country to reunite as one nation.

These false narratives villifying and dividing the country long after the Civil War concluded are nonsense.

[dead]
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Dalewyn on Saturday February 01, 2025 @05:04PM (#42902870)
>In 1865, Robert E. Lee wrote to a former Confederate soldier concerning his signing the Oath of Allegiance, and I quote: "This war, being at an end, the Southern States having laid down their arms, and the questions at issue between them and the Northern States having been decided, I believe it to be the duty of everyone to unite in the restoration of the country and the reestablishment of peace and harmony."

-President Gerald Ford

>Whereas the authority of the Federal Government having been reestablished in all the States and Territories within the jurisdiction of the United States, it is believed that such prudential reservations and exceptions as at the dates of said several proclamations were deemed necessary and proper may now be wisely and justly relinquished, and that an universal amnesty and pardon for participation in said rebellion extended to all who have borne any part therein will tend to secure permanent peace, order, and prosperity throughout the land, and to renew and fully restore confidence and fraternal feeling among the whole people, and their respect for and attachment to the National Government, designed by its patriotic founders for the general good:

-President Andrew Johnson

The Civil War is over, it ended over a century and a half ago. I again, sincerely, ask you to screw off with that false narrative which serves only to divide and weaken the unity and solidarity of the country.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by saagarjha on Sunday February 02, 2025 @03:42AM (#42907201)
Can I ask you to do the same, or is that just something you pull out when you're upset about what other people say and not something you expect to have to do yourself?
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Dalewyn on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:13AM (#42907917)
It is decidedly not factual to call ex-Confederates traitors when they were pardoned, or do you not understand what a pardon is?[1]

Ex-Confederates were traitors, that much is true. Were they never pardoned or otherwise acquitted of treason in a court of law then that would still be true today. Of course, that is not what happened: President Andrew Johnson pardoned them all unconditionally, and in the case of General Robert E. Lee (whose pardon was not processed due to clerical errors) his pardon was made effective retroactive to the date of application by an act of Congress.

Ex-Confederates are all therefore excused of their crime of treason, and to still attack them further citing that crime is baseless and unwarranted. They are Americans, and the men who fought are all American heroes who ultimately wished for a united and healed nation.

Calling Civil War era Americans traitors today is ruthlessly divisive rhetoric that only serves to sow conflict in a time when the country really does not need that kind of incendiary bullshit. Everyone who spews this false narrative should be ashamed of themselves, they are throwing mud upon those who chose to pursue peace instead of generational animosity.

[1]: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3...

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by immibis on Sunday February 02, 2025 @02:48PM (#42911177)
Pardoning someone for a crime they did does not mean they didn't do the crime.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by Dalewyn on Monday February 03, 2025 @08:00AM (#42917773)
Yes, pardoning someone basically means we are done speaking on the matter. Calling them traitors after they were pardoned is basically libel.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by saagarjha on Tuesday February 04, 2025 @04:22AM (#42930145)
I was not born yesterday. I use this site frequently enough to recognize your username and the content you post. I see you as wholly unfit to be in a position to be lecturing others about "incendiary" "ruthlessly divisive rhetoric". The fact that a substantial fraction of your comments get flagged is not because you are speaking truth to a site that is unable to take it but because historically you have liked to post poorly substantiated flamebait on the regular. If you genuinely feel that the country deserves better, consider looking inward first.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @04:04PM (#42902309)
I never understood the removal of statues. I think everybody is capable of good and bad - we should still celebrate the good stuff they did and simply add a note that says "they were humans of their time and they screwed up by doing..... - let's not forget that even the great can screw up."

otherwise we keep perpetuating the myth that the great/rich/powerful can do no wrong.

Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by ocschwar on Saturday February 01, 2025 @07:40PM (#42904218)
Most of the statues we're talking about were installed during the Civil Rights era as an explicit flex meant to intimidate African Americans.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @01:56AM (#42906650)
here in the UK we had the same burn the -witch+statue- panic and ours were imperial leaders of some sort - but the people they oppressed were oceans away.
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by rhinoceraptor on Saturday February 01, 2025 @02:33PM (#42901377)
I heard there was this party that had the same weird hand gesture that President Musk did a week or two ago...
Re:Archivists work to save disappearing Data.gov datasets by numpad0 on Saturday February 01, 2025 @10:14PM (#42905414)
There's also the OPM email thing.

(disclaimer: not an American)