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Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by gmueckl on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:11AM (#42831053)
This is all a result of a lack of active market regulation. The government needs to step in actively to keep a free market from collapsing into one of the natural end states. But the US has consistently been far too passive and accepts greedy companies far too readily.

If a single company can sell almost 100% of an essential good, they need to atomatically lose the power to set their prices and margins independently. Let them go through a cumbersome govenment approval process for price changes or something to cap margins. Price fixing cartels need to be busted more aggressively.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by Aurornis on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:54AM (#42831469)
> If a single company can sell almost 100% of an essential good, they need to atomatically lose the power to set their prices and margins independently.

The fallacy is assuming that the government will make everything cheap for consumers.

In practice, government regulation of prices just changes the game. Look at any market with rent control: There are numerous meta-games around building or not building new supply, landlords are incentivized to not fix units because they know tenants don’t want to give up their rent control and move, and a new market emerges where people illegally sublet their rent controlled apartments because it becomes attractive to take advantage of the market demand that landlords aren’t allowed to capitalize on.

The other fallacy in all of this is thinking that companies control both supply and demand. For nearly all commodities, there is a price where consumers won’t pay for it. If rents get too high, people move to a different city. If gas gets too expensive they start carpooling and looking for WFH jobs. If eggs are too expensive they eat something else. These choices make people angry as hell, but there’s no denying that these choices exist. Companies can’t push past these limits and force people to buy at any price. They still have to discover that point on the supply and demand curve.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by danny_codes on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:04PM (#42831587)
What. Are you advocating for monopolies? Obviously there is a point where people stop buying essentials. The point of capitalism is to deliver goods as cheaply as possible. If toothpaste costs $60 I would still buy it because I need toothpaste. But that extra money now goes to someone who isn’t producing, they are mooching. It’s a welfare check to a billionaire. In a monopoly pricing is fixed at maximum profit, which could make goods 10x or 100x for things with relatively inelastic demand.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ogleopoly on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:59PM (#42834048)
You're on a forum where people regularly do Patagonia-clad kabuki theatre to bored men in Palo Alto to get $10 million to build Uber for Dogs. Yes, half of these insipid comments are advocating for monopolies. That's where the money is. There's a reason America did this during the Gilded Age, and why we busted the everloving shit out of monopolies after.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by galleywest200 on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:35PM (#42831881)
> If rents get too high, people move to a different city.

With what money? It takes three months rent up-front to move (first+last month rent and a deposit equal to one month rent) up front. People _need_ a place to live and will spend every last dollar to not be homeless.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by gmueckl on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:44PM (#42831966)
The government won't make things cheaper. The point of the regulation would be to actively encumbered the monopolist company and either give strong incentives to split up or make room for nimble competitors.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by dd36 on Monday January 27, 2025 @07:57AM (#42840646)
The government does not make things cheaper, competition does. The government’s role is to protect competition. Otherwise companies will collude not to compete.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ajmurmann on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:20AM (#42831132)
"But the US has consistently been far too passive and accepts greedy companies far too readily."

All companies are greedy. That's the reason for existence. Your point that monopolies and oligopolies need to be crushed is very valid though. I wish more mergers were rejected in the first place.

Regulating prices is a recipe for disaster though.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by HarryHirsch on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:37AM (#42831302)
Regulating prices is a recipe for disaster though

That's an assertion, not a statement of fact. Pricing in natural monopolies is a mature subject, and public utilities have been a thing for over 100 years. Also, pricing for medical procedures is regulated in Europe, and it works extremely well.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ajmurmann on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:55AM (#42831485)
Yes, it's preferably over allowing a monopoly to set prices. However, wherever possible you should break up the monopoly or prevent it on the first place. Of course there are conditions where that's very hard and you mention some of them.

Setting prices where you could just have a functioning market has historically been well proven to lead to disaster. Look at any communist country. The GDR ended up allowing luxury stores that were not price bound and they were a huge hit for a reason.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by aianus on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:07PM (#42833519)
The wait time for medical procedures is extremely long in places with price caps.

It does not work “extremely well” at all, it results in shortages and wait times exactly as you would expect from economics 101. I’m speaking from personal experience having been through it myself but feel free to look up how many Canadians go to the US every year and pay out of pocket for more evidence.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ogleopoly on Sunday January 26, 2025 @04:02PM (#42834084)
That must be why America spends the least on healthcare and has the best health outcomes then.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by HarryHirsch on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:55PM (#42834004)
The wait time when you can't afford the physician is infinite. That's the market at work.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by gmueckl on Sunday January 26, 2025 @01:21PM (#42832390)
I feel that US companies are consistently more ruthless and cut-throat than companies in other countries I have visited. I see that as cultural rather than a pure economic issue.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by maeil on Sunday January 26, 2025 @01:38PM (#42832597)
> All companies are greedy. That's the reason for existence.

Black and white oversimplification that muddies the water.

You really can't think of two companies with incredibly different levels of "greed"?

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ogleopoly on Sunday January 26, 2025 @04:01PM (#42834074)
Uh, 50.9% of the voting population just voted for the man who said he'd lower prices, so.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by slater on Sunday January 26, 2025 @04:03PM (#42834099)
Surely he'll come through! And totally won't take Biden's work and claim it as his own, right?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by dudeofea on Sunday January 26, 2025 @04:40PM (#42834430)
Henry Ford tried not to be greedy all the time, then he was sued, and now all corporations are required to be greedy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by AnthonyMouse on Sunday January 26, 2025 @06:48PM (#42835571)
That's not really how that works. It's more along the lines of saying "we're doing this good thing because I want to and I have majority control so I don't have to care about the other shareholders" vs. saying "we're doing this good thing because it's good PR that may increase sales or help placate regulators" even though the thing you're doing is the exact same thing.

There are a lot of rules whose de facto consequence is to prohibit describing the true reason someone is doing something instead of actually prohibiting them from doing it.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by fsflover on Sunday January 26, 2025 @05:25PM (#42834845)
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by emn13 on Monday January 27, 2025 @02:22PM (#42844632)
One race-to-the-bottom phenomenon that (to me at least) appears to aggravate the impact of "corporate greed" is the social loop that goes as follows:

1. company decides to push the boundaries of the socially acceptable when it comes to cutting corners (e.g. screwing their customers, or employees, or environment, or debtors)

2. People don't like it, but rationalize this as being a natural consequence of incorporation and the profit motive. Hence while they grumble, there negative impacts to public perception don't actually cost the company as much as you might think

2b. Even if there's a boycott, there will be vocal minority that thinks it's all a bunch of whiny <target audience we're better than>. They'll actively harass or undermine said boycott or backlash, even if in a purely egotistical sense their interests are actually aligned with the boycotters

3. Social norm is reset; we all collectively expect even less from companies. That doesn't however mean the new norm is better or maintained, because as soon as there's some new major conflict between short-term profit and maintaining a decent reputation in public, we go back to step 1 from the new, lower baseline.

Stuff like increasing partisanship, and decreasing incentives for journalist (whether profession, citizen or influencer) to maintain their professional standing (as opposed to targeting clickbate) probably smears those gears nicely.

Many companies have historically clearly paid well over the odds to maintain their reputation, and done well doing so. It's just not true that nihilistic short term greed has always paid; obviously it didn't and still doesn't really. It profitable to do the little, but simultaneously also to do as many cheap things that materially affect public standing as possible.

By promoting the profit motive past a merely utilitarian means to an efficiency-optimizing end into a matter of national identity and point of distinction vs. in particular the USSR, we've shifted our culture beyond what's really rational. We (as a society) don't merely respect and understand the profit motive; we see it as a sign of merit - and significant enough merit that "winning" on that scale excuses a lot of other bad behavior.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by stickfigure on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:35AM (#42831296)
You've let the article author mislead you into a mental frame that does not exist.

There is no such company "Big Potato Cartel". It's four separate companies, grouped together by the author's observation that together their frozen-potato market shares sum to 97%. But your mental image is something like a drug cartel or OPEC. Someone is playing with your emotions.

How many big companies would you expect in a mature market? Four seems pretty normal.

The article includes the accusation that these companies engage in price fixing via an app. It's an interesting claim, possibly worth investigating, but there's nothing substantial in the article to support it. Just a lot of emotional manipulation.

I don't like being emotionally manipulated.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ruds on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:00PM (#42831533)
Antitrust suits were filed against these four companies in November, alleging that they conspired to fix prices: https://archive.is/fp44d
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by KennyBlanken on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:02PM (#42831559)
That's pretty funny coming from someone attempting to manipulate people who have read the comments but not the linked article, or the original reporting that is linked to in said article.

You left out all four companies feeding data to PotatoTrac, all four companies announcing raising their prices by the same amount at exactly the same time, executives shifting which company they work for like it's a merry-go-round, the four companies communicating extensively between each other in a way not even remotely natural for competitors, the companies demanding suppliers not take on other customers, restaurant distributors forcibly bundling fries with other foods so that restaurants have to sell them, and so on.

Oh, and multiple anti-trust lawsuits: https://fortune.com/2024/11/22/potato-cartel-price-fixing-la...

Also left out that other mega-food companies have been caught doing the same thing...

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by asadotzler on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:33PM (#42831865)
Are you willfully misleading here or did you simply not, you know, do the thing you're supposed to do before commenting?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by vtashkov on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:18AM (#42831118)
There’s quite good active market regulation in Russia, Venezuela and Cuba for example. How is it there?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by zemo on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:33AM (#42831275)
The argument that you are making is that a single entity controlling the pricing of a good is bad. That's not a counter-argument, it's the same argument. It's bad when a government does it, it's bad when an oligopoly does it. More than one thing can be bad.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by vtashkov on Sunday January 26, 2025 @05:11PM (#42834733)
No, the argument I an countering is that since oligopoly is bad, government control would fix it. It has NEVER fixed it. Only more free market could.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by cratermoon on Sunday January 26, 2025 @09:17PM (#42836665)
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by wat10000 on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:34AM (#42831284)
My local power company is a monopoly with rates heavily regulated by the state. My electricity is cheap and reliable.

Newsflash: anything can be done badly. Cherry-picking the worst examples proves nothing.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by cogman10 on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:40AM (#42831332)
Well let's see, the Russian market collapsed primarily because of sanctions. The Venezuelan market also collapsed primarily due to sanctions. And of course the Cuba market collapsed primarily due to sanctions.

It seems to me that the US and other nations locking these countries out of the global market has been a pretty major factor in their current economic situation. Do you disagree? I'd also posit that it might be the case that an autocratic takeover in each of these nations has negatively impacted them.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by notTooFarGone on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:56AM (#42831495)
Also in some tribes in south America - checkmate!
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ordinaryradical on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:24AM (#42831169)
If you can’t be intellectually curious why even be on HN?

Strawmanning like this may make you think you’re clever but it signals to the “average person” that your mind is made up.

I don’t read articles here because my mind is made up but because I like considering different points of view and data. Maybe start with that spirit next time?

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by cratermoon on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:27AM (#42831209)
Redbaiting is SO 1950s
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by vtashkov on Sunday January 26, 2025 @05:10PM (#42834715)
Redbaiting in 1950s turned out to be absolutely right thing to do, as latest unclassified documents showed. The problem is that now huge amount of us population live in the capitalism but preach socialism, even though there’s quite good choice of leftist countries where they can migrate to.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by cratermoon on Sunday January 26, 2025 @06:40PM (#42835519)
> The problem is that now huge amount of us population live in the capitalism but preach socialism, even though there’s quite good choice of leftist countries where they can migrate to.

You got me. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by binernerd on Sunday January 26, 2025 @11:24AM (#42831174)
I’m not sure you understand so I’ll go slow. If one US company owns all of one thing it’s bad. Mmmkay?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by vtashkov on Sunday January 26, 2025 @05:05PM (#42834667)
If the government owns all it is FAR worse. Intel used to be a monopoly in practice. Now it’s not. The manufacturer of CPUs in USSR though never ceased to be the one and only. Is it dumbed enough for you to understand?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by wyager on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:27PM (#42831804)
> The government needs to step in actively to keep a free market from collapsing into one of the natural end states.

Which is what, exactly? The US is per capita richer than almost all EU countries by a huge margin (with a few small exceptions mostly enabled by regulatory arbitrage targeting US money), so forgive me if I don't take your seething commentary about the US economic apparatus very seriously.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by gmueckl on Sunday January 26, 2025 @12:51PM (#42832050)
Any free, unregulated market will eliminate competitors until they create an oligopoly or even a single monopoly. It's an immediate consequence of the rules of the market.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by olalonde on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:13PM (#42833585)
That's simply false. Name one unregulated market where this has occurred.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by plankers on Sunday January 26, 2025 @08:58PM (#42836536)
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by olalonde on Monday January 27, 2025 @06:14AM (#42839772)
Standard Oil: Its monopoly was already crumbling before antitrust action. By 1911, market share had plunged from 90% to 64% as competitors like Gulf/Texaco emerged and new oil fields broke its grip.

Carnegie Steel: Government intervention. The federal government imposed steep tariffs on imported steel, shielding domestic producers like Carnegie from foreign competition. Without those tariffs, cheaper British/German steel would have kept Carnegie’s dominance in check.

Southern Pacific Railroad: Government intervention. The federal government gifted it, through the Pacific Railroad Acts, millions of acres and subsidized loans. This state-sponsored land monopoly let it block competitors from critical routes.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by dd36 on Monday January 27, 2025 @07:54AM (#42840625)
Google. Microsoft. Facebook. If it weren’t for antitrust, there’d be a lot fewer cell phone companies or airlines. I mean, it’s harder to name an industry where there hasn’t been consolidation. The only thing stopping it is the law. Consolidation was basically illegal until the 1980s. If you wanted to grow, you had to compete.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by olalonde on Monday January 27, 2025 @04:54PM (#42846119)
Wrong. Also, none of the companies you listed are monopolies.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by dd36 on Monday January 27, 2025 @10:44PM (#42848624)
Google was literally declared a monopoly by a court recently. Facebook and Apple both are oligopolies or monopolies in certain market segments. Apple has a monopoly on app store and on device payments. These things are bad enough that they’re being litigated.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by wyager on Sunday January 26, 2025 @01:07PM (#42832229)
Despite constant moaning about the US not engaging in monopoly-busting anymore, that doesn't actually seem to be a problem in practice.

In reality, comparative advantage and specialization dynamics do not uniformly equilibrate on monopoly markets.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by unethical_ban on Sunday January 26, 2025 @02:01PM (#42832835)
The content of the article shows that it is still a problem. You think that landlords and food suppliers colluding to raise prices to just below the breaking point is not a problem?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by wyager on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:08PM (#42833526)
It's not a "breaking point", it's the market rate. There's no landlord cartel; anyone can easily defect and lower their own prices.

The entire food production and provision supply chain has razor-thin margins. If you're hyperfocusing on that industry, it's a sign that your heuristics are pointing you at the wrong things.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by unethical_ban on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:24PM (#42833704)
Cartel price fixing is not "market rate" by any honest definition.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by emn13 on Monday January 27, 2025 @01:57PM (#42844406)
Outright monopolistic pricing is also "the market rate". Frankly, virtually any price somebody is willing to pay is almost by definition "the market rate". It's a meaningless defense for an artificially high price.
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by olalonde on Sunday January 26, 2025 @03:11PM (#42833563)
> to keep a free market from collapsing into one of the natural end states

What is that natural end state? Natural monopolies are exceedingly rare, almost all monopolies are the result of government intervention.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by ogleopoly on Sunday January 26, 2025 @04:00PM (#42834056)
Which part of not preventing a bunch of mergers for decades counts as government intervention to you?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by olalonde on Sunday January 26, 2025 @04:16PM (#42834219)
Government non-intervention doesn't typically lead to monopolies. What monopoly are you referring to?
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by AnthonyMouse on Sunday January 26, 2025 @06:54PM (#42835618)
1) Government imposes regulatory barriers to entry, inhibiting new businesses from entering the market

2) Incumbents buy each other and raise prices

If you only had the second one then as soon as the incumbents tried to raise prices, new businesses would want a piece of it and enter the market, causing prices to fall until it was no longer profitable to enter the market.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by emn13 on Monday January 27, 2025 @02:28PM (#42844682)
I'm curious what you base that on. For instance, we've never really allowed literally cutthoat competition, nor things like fraud and we've generally not allowed misrepresentation. Governments intervene heavily and always have to set those kind of boundary conditions - but there are really lots of them. Economies of scale seem to be very, very common ever since the industrial revolution; and even more so in today's information-economy platform era.

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where significant competition is a natural end state, but how common those are in comparison? I'm curious.

Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by olalonde on Monday January 27, 2025 @05:09PM (#42846282)
The observation that the least regulated markets are typically the most competitive ones and that large companies rarely tend to maintain their lead over long periods of time. And at least one Nobel Prize-winning economist agrees with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLBzfFGFQU
Re:It's not a crime if we do it with an app by emn13 on Friday February 07, 2025 @05:53PM (#42978448)
While a humorous response by Milton and an interesting debating point, the argument he makes is pretty weak because it almost inevitably reduces to complete lawlessness, doesn't really define which government "granted" monopolies he's willing to give up, and ultimately relies on a fairly arbitrary definition of what government even is - and one that if you really let it go to the extreme not only obviously just doesn't work well for most people, it also does not avoid monopolies as is witnessed every day around the globe.

After all, the natural inclination of a powerful elite is to protect their interest. It's business 101 to want a moat, and tearing down one set of artifical legal protections that allows for a moat allows on the other hand for the far more extreme quite physically violent moat in the form of a putin-esque kleptocracy.

The argument merely sounds convincing because it's very selectively implying that certain monopolies are created by state power and might be weakened by free market principles without considering what a free market even is (generally a regulated one), nor addressing the fact that other monopolies will arise precisely because because the lack of regulation allows winner-take-all brute force strategies to work.

That doesn't mean Milton's ideas are without merit - but that there is a breaking point; dogmatically hoping for anarchy to avoid harmful centralization of power is problematic because of the dogma; not because it's never a valid approach.

But sure, if you're going to embrace Milton's (intentionally) vague proposition in the way it was likely intended - to provoke thought - then sure; there are state regulations that are in part to blame for some of today's near monopolies - the interaction between intellectual property, incorporation, and state-enforced contract law. As a matter of debate, sure, it'd be interesting to weaken all three and in particular their interactions. I just highly doubt that's very practical, nor would it be very easy to predict the outcome, especially once international power-plays start circumventing even the best of intentions.