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Re:Rewilding the Self by PaulRobinson on Sunday January 12, 2025 @09:29AM (#42673778)
We are nature. The separation between humanity and nature is a false one, that works against conservation efforts.

I like the idea of rewilding because it forces us to see ourselves as part of a large natural system - which is what we are - and helps grow appreciation for that system.

But until there is a way for recognition of that system to become more profitable than "othering" nature - polluting the environment, destroying parts of that system - or regulation prevents that othering, it can be depressingly isolating.

Re:Rewilding the Self by arn3n on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:17AM (#42674145)
This is a take on environmental communication I’ve heard more and more of recently. Out of curiosity, do you know of other literature or people trying to reframe the human/nature relationship?
Re:Rewilding the Self by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday January 12, 2025 @12:05PM (#42674945)
I'm reminded of a sign I once saw at a protest:

> We are nature defending itself

It might interest you for use as a search query, there seems to be more to it than just a sign.

Re:Rewilding the Self by holdit on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:46AM (#42674809)
David Abram's 1996 book The Spell of the Sensuous a good starting point.

This was also a central theme in a lot of the late John Moriarty's work (although approached more obliquely and holistically than Abram imo). That mantle has been picked up by Martin Shaw. Both discuss how we, as a species, have domesticated ourselves out of our natural and profound connection the very ground of our being. See also philosopher and neuroscientist Iain McGilchrist's The Master and his Emmisary.

Re:Rewilding the Self by eat_veggies on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:25AM (#42674654)
William Cronon, "The Trouble with Wilderness: Or, Getting Back to the Wrong Nature"

https://faculty.washington.edu/timbillo/Readings%20and%20doc...

Re:Rewilding the Self by walterbell on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:38AM (#42674302)
> do you know of other literature or people trying to reframe the human/nature relationship?

WHO draft treaties demote humans (including rights) to the same level as other animals and mandates global surveillance of interspecies zoonotic boundaries.

The TV series "Zoo", based on writing by James Patterson, includes 3 seasons of thought experiments.

Re:Rewilding the Self by ggregoryarms on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:44AM (#42674797)
Try "Way of Being" by James Bridle.
Re:Rewilding the Self by monktastic1 on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:49AM (#42674370)
You might appreciate Charles Eisenstein (or he might be too "hippie" for you). I posted another quote of his as a top-level comment, but here's another:

Clear-cutting aside, the decline of one after another species of trees all over the world is something of a mystery to scientists: in each case, there seems to be a different proximate culprit — a beetle, a fungus, etc. But why have they become susceptible? Acid rain leaching free aluminum from soil silicates? Ground-level ozone damaging leaves? Drought stress caused by deforestation elsewhere? Heat stress due to climate change? Understory damage due to deer overpopulation due to predator extermination? Exogenous insect species? Insect population surges due to the decline of certain bird species?

Or is it all of the above? Perhaps underneath all of these vectors of forest decline and climate instability is a more general principle that is inescapable. Everything I have mentioned stems from a kind of derangement in our own society. All come from the perception of separation from nature and from each other, upon which all our systems of money, technology, industry, and so forth are built. Each of these projects itself onto our own psyches as well. The ideology of control says that if we can only identify the “cause,” we can control climate change. Fine, but what if the cause is everything? Economy, politics, emissions, agriculture, medicine … all the way to religion, psychology, our basic stories through which we apprehend the world? We face then the futility of control and the necessity for transformation.

...

Thus I say that our revolution must go all the way to the bottom, all the way down to our basic understanding of self and world. We will not survive as a species through more of the same: better breeds of corn, better pesticides, the extension of control to the genetic and molecular level. We need to enter a fundamentally different story. That is why an activist will inevitably find herself working on the level of story. She will find that in addition to addressing immediate needs, even the most practical, hands-on actions are telling a story. They come from and contribute to a new Story of the World.

Re:Rewilding the Self by mxkopy on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:02AM (#42674466)
Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
Re:Rewilding the Self by andrei_says_ on Sunday January 12, 2025 @01:30PM (#42675608)
Aurora Morales, in one of the essays in Medicine Stories, mentions how we need to stop referring to our biosphere as “environment”.

It is not something “out there” that surrounds us. It is the air we take in with every breath etc. we are one with it.

Poisoning or destroying it is the very act of poisoning and destroying ourselves.

She points out that perceiving the biosphere, the land, other living beings, and humans as resources - and especially resources tied to an economic system of infinite growth, causes us to destroy it all for the creation of illusory value.

We are dealing with normalized mental illness on planetary scale which causes humanity to actively destroy our biosphere.

Re:Rewilding the Self by sriacha on Sunday January 12, 2025 @03:16PM (#42676507)
Kimmerer: The Serviceberry and Braiding Sweetgrass
Re:Rewilding the Self by johan_felisaz on Monday January 13, 2025 @12:35PM (#42686063)
The anthropologist Philippe Descola with his main work Beyond Nature and Culture has been trying to classify the nature/culture relations by studying comparatively several societies.
Re:Rewilding the Self by magic_smoke_ee on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:28AM (#42674233)
There's a word for it: anthropocentrism. Also a common fallacy/myth: the noble savage.
Re:Rewilding the Self by partomniscient on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:21AM (#42674633)
"But it wouldn't have been ecological. The geotects of Imperial Tectonics would not have known an ecosystem if they'd been living in the middle of one. But they did know that ecosystems were especially tiresome when they got fubared, so they protected the environment with the same implacable, plodding, green-visioned mentality that they applied to designing overpasses and culverts."

-- Neal Stephenson, The Diamond Age.

Kind of interesting timing given the mysterious sea fence that appeared recently [1].

Does that mean there's still some sort of hope...?

[1] https://en.tempo.co/read/1963072/after-much-protest-pantura-...

Re:Rewilding the Self by MrMcCall on Sunday January 12, 2025 @09:51AM (#42673938)
The primary problem, my brother, is our valuing the world's resources in terms of money.
Re:Rewilding the Self by 65 on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:12AM (#42674110)
The problem lies in the idea that humans can own land. Hah. We're so dumb. We cannot "own" land.
Re:Rewilding the Self by antonvs on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:29AM (#42674236)
Of course we can. You're perhaps thinking of ownership as being something more than a social construction, but that's all it is.

"Own" just means that we agree with other people that we have certain rights over some property - land, or whatever. That ownership is enforced to varying degrees by society. That's it.

Re:Rewilding the Self by brookst on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:24AM (#42674650)
Yep. The same fallacy would get you “we can’t own a candy bar because its component atoms originated in distant stars billions of years ago and will outlive our solar system”. Sorry, no, that’s my Kit Kat.
Re:Rewilding the Self by cwmoore on Sunday January 12, 2025 @11:44AM (#42674789)
You can have your Kit Kat and eat it too? You must be thinking of Twix.
Re:Rewilding the Self by tomrod on Sunday January 12, 2025 @10:25AM (#42674210)
Sure we can. We made fences, guns, and governments to do exactly that. But it turns out these coordination and defensive devices sort of blow up in our hands. And come a huge hurricane, storm, flood, or fire, nature just laughs are our land surveys and continues unabated.
Re:Rewilding the Self by wat10000 on Sunday January 12, 2025 @01:33PM (#42675636)
I see the appeal of this framing, but it seems wrong. We came from nature but we’re qualitatively different. No other species could spread across the world in the virtual blink of an eye. No other species could dig up and burn gigatons of coal or eradicate thousands of species just for convenience, food, or sheer indifference.

I don’t see it helping conservation efforts either. If we’re part of nature, if we’re fundamentally not so different, then that implies we don’t need to worry too much about what we do. Dumping toxic waste is like a deer crapping on the ground. It doesn’t worry about where the stuff goes or what will clean it up, so why should we?

The answer is that we’re not part of nature, we don’t have robust ecosystems taking care of all those details. We should care because we still need nature for many things, and beyond that we still want it. And so we must act to preserve it, because we certainly are capable of acting to destroy it.

Re:Rewilding the Self by cle on Sunday January 12, 2025 @01:58PM (#42675852)
The answer is that it's not binary, despite everyone's insistence on framing it as such. We are a part of nature, but we do have some degree of power and responsibility over it that other species don't. It's not absolute, it's murky and messy, defined by the relative magnitude of power and our estimates of it. I think this framing addresses both our relationship within our ecosystems, above our ecosystems, and in the distant future, beneath some larger cosmic ecosystem that may exist that we don't know about yet.
Re:Rewilding the Self by picafrost on Sunday January 12, 2025 @02:48PM (#42676294)
Other lifeforms have dramatically altered the planet in the (geologic) past. The Great Oxidation Event, when plants colonized land, etc. These events were far more catastrophic to the status quo of their time. Timelines, means, and modes differ, sure. If anything makes us qualitatively different it's that we have a choice.

Or do we? Does a plant have a choice jumping from sea to land? Do we have a choice in greedily using the resources of the planet to "progress"? From the perspective of a pessimist it's beginning to seem, at least to me, that we do not.

I frame it to myself this way:

- We are one animal among many

- We are uniquely capable of large-scale destruction

- Technology must be carefully additive tools

- Designing tools is designing behavior

- Civilization is complication, nature is complexity

- Nature, undominated, is our home

Re:Rewilding the Self by CalRobert on Monday January 13, 2025 @02:16PM (#42687454)
For all we know there have been great civilizations in eons past. How would we know? 100 million years from now there might not be a trace of our own civilization left.
Re:Rewilding the Self by bokoharambe on Sunday January 12, 2025 @01:53PM (#42675803)
Humans both are a part of nature and are distinct from it at the same time. It is wrong to dissolve humanity into its natural constituents just as it is wrong to turn humanity into something totally Other or supernatural standing above nature. Both can be true.

Reject the law of noncontradiction.

Re:Rewilding the Self by card_zero on Sunday January 12, 2025 @01:57PM (#42675847)
But at the same time, accept it.
Re:Rewilding the Self by bokoharambe on Sunday January 12, 2025 @02:22PM (#42676075)
That's the spirit!
Re:Rewilding the Self by research_pie on Sunday January 12, 2025 @04:09PM (#42676966)
If we are nature and there is no separation then whatever we do is nature.

Including polluting and destroying part of the system.

Re:Rewilding the Self by netsharc on Monday January 13, 2025 @10:34AM (#42684540)
This[1] says humans make up 34% of mammal biomass, 64% is livestock, and 4% wild animals. Another stat[2] says we kill more than 63 billion chickens each year. I like my steak and fried chicken, but damn if it's not horrific. (Imagine if an alien race farmed and killed 60 billion humans, each year...)

1) https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass 2) https://birdvenue.com/homegrown-flock/chickens/how-many-chic...

Re:Rewilding the Self by salomonk_mur on Monday January 13, 2025 @09:27PM (#42692738)
I wonder how many wild animals would be killed and eaten yearly in a world without humans. Are those deaths horrific too?

Would the earth itself be a horrific hellhole given it would be sustaining billions of deaths, each year?

I have never understood this argument against animal farming. I'm all for humane treatment of livestock, but we can't fool ourselves into believing that the corresponding biomass in a completely "wild" earth would be having a better time, or a better death, than our cows and chickens.