> H1B is just about specialized (skilled) professions like engineer or nurse or designer or manager.

No domestic workers in those fields will work for the bottom tier of $38K. That is not a skilled professional's salary. The point is to get gullible foreigners to work for peanuts with the promise of maybe winning a green card. Maybe.

What H1B engineer is being paid annually $38k in the US

Someone who works as a game programmer. I've been paid about that much working alongside visa holders.

Don't you officially have to prove there is no American fit for the job? It's being so much abused, seems that also needs some rework.

This is why the job title will be something obscure like “AI Scientist” which isn’t something anyone calls themselves. Since no one fits the bill domestically, this allowed Zoom to hire one for $75k in San Jose, CA, one of the most expensive COL cities in the country.

When I applied (and got H1B) in the 2000’s they threw every technology on my resume into the job requirement for DOL and suddenly I was one of the very few qualified candidates

No, that requirement is only for greencard, not for h1b.

For h1b they just need to prove they are paying “prevailing wage” which is sort of proxy for market wage with asterisk

That's why you see so many job requirements that are ultra specific, or just ghost requirements. They put that out and claim they couldn't find anybody domestically.

I know this will probably be an unpopular take on a forum of American software engineers —- but the reason the US even has a tech industry in the first place (and why the top 10 most valuable companies in the world is basically a list of former Silicon Valley startups), is because all the best talent wants to move here.

The basic misunderstanding of how value and jobs are created is mind boggling to me. We should fix the H1B program because it will make us all richer and better off, including the American engineers.

The import of goods is fundamentally different than the importing of talent. Importing goods boosts the competing countries economy. Importing talent strips competing countries of their best resources. Tech talent can create basically unlimited value due to the zero marginal cost nature of software replication.

what works best for the economy as a whole, in the long term can really affect someone negatively on the short term

If you're of working age, you're going to likely be alive for say 30-50+ more years. And your kids for maybe 70-80+ years.

Tech adoption is now faster than ever, so there's numerous examples of Silicon Valley companies going from 0 to one of the most valuable companies in the world 5-15 years.

Stop thinking about the short term. You're going to be around for the long term, so you're only screwing over yourself.

Rather than looking at fixing a broken visa system that's specifically employee tied we should just look at relaxing the requirements for O1 visa qualification and allowing non-employer tied skilled immigration.

There's a classic story that used to be told about Cambridge and Silicon Valley - both were good candidates for the tech boom but Silicon Valley won because Massachusetts allowed extremely harsh non-competes that prevented employees from freely switching jobs. The H1B visa vs. O1 visa argument is basically the exact same scenario - forcing workers to stay in specific positions hurts innovation and competitiveness. Once you're accepted into the US you should be free to participate in the labor market like everyone else.

I know plenty of H1B visa friends that move around jobs. They are not stuck at one employer.

and I know plenty who won't because while you CAN, if anything goes wrong, you are going home. They prefer to play it safe with known quantity then roll the dice, have a paperwork SNAFU and end up on the plane home.

There is no "play it safe" in the US since workers can be easily fired. Best solution is to give every worker better job security.

Whether it's "fixing" H1B or expanding O1, it doesn't matter. Having more industrious high skilled people in the economy makes us all richer.

The job market is not a zero sum game.

> Why should Americans compete with the whole world for domestic jobs?

Because its the global market. Why should other countries allow Coke to sell in their markets and depress local soda companies? A person is just an LLC selling their goods/services. Immigration is no different to customs.

All countries are hypocrites, and everything sucks.

No, people are not corporations despite what Haraari et al. would love you to think. This does not benefit US citizens. It benefits corporate profits.

Your point is moot anyway since countries, including the USA, have protectionist policies.

>This does not benefit US citizens.

And? Yes, we know it doesn't benefit US citizens. How many citizens filter for products made by American workers when making purchasing decisions? People want cheap shit, except when it comes to their own jobs.

and why should US citizens support policies that actively harm them, by voting for politicians that want to impose such policies?

they shouldn't, but my point was everyone is a hypocrite here, because secretly we know that protectionism is necessary, and it works - despite proclamations that companies in a capitalist model embrace competition and employees want meritocracy.

Why American corporations like automakers can lobby to impose tariffs and extract more money from American consumers, but there are no protections for labor?

If Tesla/GM are so good in this beautiful global market, they dont need no tariffs on Chinese EVs.

Zero tariffs in all imports since it is beautiful global market and competition is good and all tariffs are paid by American consumers

>Why American corporations like automakers can lobby to impose tariffs and extract more money from American consumers,

Because they can buy the politicians to protect their own interest. Simple as that, no mystery, case closed.

Labor needs to start voting in better politicians.

> Labor needs to start voting in better politicians.

who and where they are? these so called "better" politicians?

I think we cannot vote our way out of this and only next level solutions like revolution or protest or "Luigi solution" will make labor's voice heard.

Remember, labor/working class vastly outnumber capitalist class (and have more weapons thanks to 2nd amendment) and capitalists were, are, and will always be scared to death when American labor gains class conscience and starts demanding what they are owed by the capitalist class

Bernie

The protections for labor are far stronger. Companies are allowed to do business in a foreign country by default, while employment is banned by default. If you want to get employed, you have to apply for a special permit, which can be difficult and time-consuming to get. The terms of the permit are often also very restrictive.

its about relative change in power dynamics, not only absolute position.

American Labor should never support policies that will harm labor and benefit capitalist class (at least without some negotiation).

US citizens should not support policies that will harm working class and benefit employer/capitalist class

This is not about capitalists vs. working class. It's about upper middle class vs. capitalists, middle class, and working class.

When you grow up in an export-driven country, one thing you learn early is that high wages are bad for the economy. And when the economy is bad, it's the ordinary people who suffer the most.

You generally want to keep the labor share of GDP constant, which means that wages should grow about as fast as GDP per capita. If the wages grow faster than that in a field, it's probably bad for the economy. Especially if the field was already highly paid. Unusually high wages typically indicate low productivity (when measured in outputs per dollar). And when productivity is low, businesses that rely on the outputs of that field become less competitive. For example, if making software is more expensive in the US than in other developed countries, American businesses cannot afford to use it as much as their foreign competitors.

Oh it is absolutely labor vs capital. I will answer with a picture: https://aneconomicsense.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/real-...

you can overlay in your mind chart of FAANG stock total return or VC total returns to compare returns to Capital vs wages

the article: https://aneconomicsense.org/2015/02/13/why-wages-have-stagna...

There is a reason why USA has at-will employment (to screw over labor) and import tariffs (to protect capital)

>I think it was 85000 new visas per year for several decades.

This sounds close. I think it was lowered on or near Trump's first term. It was higher during Obama, I'm recalling 185K maybe. Also, this misleading to the public because it's 85,000 new visas that can be extended 6 years I believe, so that's ~510,000 at any given time.

Plus add the accumulation of H1Bs that get a green card to the labor pool. Also, there are exceptions to many of the H1B rules allowing extensions. True number is in the millions.

Yup, with that and no tariffs on inbound commits on software created by offshore labor, you know who the government supports, and it ain't the workers.

Considering there are around 1.5 - 3 million domestic software developers, that probably pushes down our salaries by about a third. Domestic software developers could be making around 50% more if it weren't for these policies. Imagine how much better off we'd be.

Politicians will sell their mothers for a campaign donation and they've been selling us out for decades. We need to stop buying into their distracting wedge issues and concentrate on what matters: our livelihoods.

>H1B was never about the top talent

If it's not about top talent, why not hire locally?

(I'm not implying local talent is sub-par)

You're much less likely to be able to get local talent into what amounts to indentured servitude, and local talent also is much more likely to want the real prevailing wage for their work. It's all just labor arbitrage.

Agreed.

Because there's a severe shortage of talent (willing to work for the offered prices)

Natives cost more, or, more generally speaking, they are less willing to cede ground on various dimensions (pay, hours, commute, benefits, COL, etc).

This can be framed as natives having higher standards of living, or natives being lazy, depending on who you ask.

> Anyone can come in and just apply for jobs, get work visa and steal a job from an American citizen.

The main mistake being made here is assuming that employment is a fixed sum game. Bringing highly skilled individuals from around the world to the US promotes US growth. A study has even shown that higher H-1B denial rate results in a decrease of US positions by multinational companies. [0]

> If American Labor is subjected to unchecked global competition from global talent pool, then so should be American Capital.

I'm not sure how that follows. Protective tariffs as a response to state subsidies don't really have an equivalent for labor.

[0] https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/fil...

You need to talk to any fresh American undergrad senior about their struggle finding forst job, especially in CS.

Just do a mental exercise: do you want your children to compete with the whole world For their first job out of college?

Look at Canada and whats happening there. Goant influx of foreigners and severe crisis in job market and housing.

Do you want to subject your kids to global competition for jobs and housing?

Is America a nation or just an economic zone for anyone to come in, work, pay taxes and consume goods ?

Just to note, American Immigration Council is made up with Immigration lawyers. I doubt they are going to be like "Wow, this is terrible idea, time to put myself out of a job by advocating against it."

Next up, getting advice from Microsoft Software Developer Foundation about best Desktop OS to run.

I guess that's somewhat fair, though doesn't refute the study they're citing from UPenn [0]

[0]: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/aevyu53k3e9nnt8d4ki8m/BGlenno...