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Re:Stay Gold, America by noduerme on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:08AM (#42620702)
Having lived in a country with compulsory voting (Argentina), I find the notion charming but I can scarcely say it leads to more intelligent outcomes.
Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:20AM (#42620757)
Compulsory voting removes an important signal where participation indicates the legitimacy. Which is why very few democracies have compulsory voting.

Having 70-80-90% participation with non-compulsory voting should be the goal of any self respecting democracy and politicians who reject measures to increase voter turnout should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

Re:Stay Gold, America by Terr_ on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:55AM (#42620962)
> Compulsory voting removes an important signal where participation indicates the legitimacy.

Not really: Voters can still choose to "not participate" (whether as protest or laziness) simply by casting a ballot that is functionally empty of choices.

If anything, the signal you're talking about becomes stronger, since a compulsory-voting system removes or reduces certain practical impediments which have nothing to do with deliberate protest.

Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:08AM (#42621045)
> simply by casting a ballot that is functionally empty of choices.

The signals are different. I cast a blank vote to indicate my support for the process/election, but my lack of support for any of the candidates. I cast no vote to indicate my lack of support for the process itself.

Non-voters and blank/invalid voters are usually reported separately to give exactly these 2 signals.

Re:Stay Gold, America by fifilura on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @08:13AM (#42621982)
Your vote would have been stronger if you actually voted for change of the process. By not voting you are just voting for chaos.
Re:Stay Gold, America by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @07:36AM (#42621747)
I wonder how well a system would work if it had compulsory voting, but there was always a 'none of the above' option on the ballet. If 'none of the above' gets the most votes or above a certain threshold, the current candidates are disqualified and another election is called with new ones.
Re:Stay Gold, America by kaycey2022 on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @03:25AM (#42632203)
Yes. Once that is in place you’ll realise that most people aren’t cynical about their politics and would always choose a candidate since they choose to make a trip to the voting booth.
Re:Stay Gold, America by Vilian on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @02:14PM (#42637443)
Make it compulsory them, if they don't like it gonna show
Re:Stay Gold, America by Gud on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @10:35AM (#42623461)
The most important option is effectively removed (for poor people) if you reject the whole system, which is to not participate.
Re:Stay Gold, America by defrost on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:16AM (#42621095)
> Compulsory voting removes an important signal where participation indicates the legitimacy.

Total utter rubbish.

Australia has compulsory voting .. meaning 98% of people turn up or mail in a "vote" and have a barbeque on the day.

The "signal" you falsely claim to be missing is right there in the donkey votes and duds - anybody that objects to the candidates presented is free to draw a dick and balls on the ballot or pencil in a candidate of their choice .. and that signal is anonymous, counted and logged.

Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:22AM (#42621123)
> anybody that objects to the candidates presented

You are missing the point. It's not about objecting to candidates. It's two separate signals sent by on the one hand abstaining, and on the other hand filling out a blank votes.

Blank vote means "I think this is a legitimate election, I just don't like any of the candidates".

The distinction between these two signals is important enough that most democracies around the world preserve it by not having compulsory voting.

Re:Stay Gold, America by pjc50 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:56AM (#42620975)
> Having 70-80-90% participation with non-compulsory voting should be the goal of any self respecting democracy and politicians who reject measures to increase voter turnout should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

The US has a long history of voter suppression, which is often supported by the remaining voters. There's a lot of court cases about it; states will fight hard to reduce the impact of the ""wrong kind"" of voters.

Re:Stay Gold, America by akdor1154 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @06:22AM (#42621371)
> Compulsory voting removes an important signal where participation indicates the legitimacy.

Australia has compulsory voting and retains this: the legal req is to show up and get your name marked off.

If you wish to communicate your dissatisfaction with the available candidates, then you then fill out your ballot with a giant penis and go on your merry way.

Re:Stay Gold, America by noduerme on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @06:59PM (#42629243)
Sounds like you could do well in Australian politics by just changing your name to a penis emoji.
Re:Stay Gold, America by noduerme on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:46AM (#42620914)
This is an excellent point. Turnout may be an important signal which is lost with compulsory voting, and certainly any politician trying to suppress votes is dishonest.

To play devil's advocate and to argue for compulsory voting for a moment, however: It is a potential antidote to the type of voter apathy by which a somewhat demoralized but popular party (e.g. Democrats in the last US election) put themselves out of power by not being as motivated as a smaller group.

So while knowing the width of the motivation gap is useful, a polity could also just compel everyone to vote and then ask if they would have done so if not compelled, to get that information. Which is worse: Inaccurate data about voters' excitement, or sudden and surprising political shifts because people were sure they didn't need to go out to vote because they assumed their party had the majority?

Without compulsory voting, only those with strong motivation will vote - and there is no guarantee that an outsized motivation on one extreme side of the spectrum will not drastically and surprisingly take over if most people felt safe staying home. Austria right now seems to be a good example.

Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:17AM (#42621102)
Yes I agree, in the US specifically it would proabably be the lesser evil to have compulsory voting. And especially if it was coupled with some sweeping reforms to convince everyone of the integrity of the election (The problem not being the integrity, but that people lack faith in the integrity which is an equally important problem!). For example, ensure absolutely everyone has easy and free access to ID. Then ensure everyone votes with that ID.
Re:Stay Gold, America by rickydroll on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @08:46AM (#42622215)
Free access to an ID is only part of the problem. you also need equal access to ID issuers (ie, locations, hours open, wait times, etc), multiple forms of ID to validate the voter ID. Not everyone has a birth certificate (lost, home birth, in another country that you may want to stay hidden from).

Put simply, the effort to become a voter should be equal regardless of wealth. I like the idea of imposing the difficulty the minority poors have in getting an ID on the white better off. Can you imagine Musk having to make multiple in-person trips to the DMV and wait an hour each time he is there?

Re:Stay Gold, America by fifilura on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:54AM (#42620952)
Not voting is a poor way to show dissent since it practically gives your vote to whoever gets the majority.

Better then to vote for yourself, vote blank, vote for whoever you would rather have in charge, or vote for the least bad.

Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:28AM (#42621138)
Yes. It's important to vote IF you think the elections are legitimate and fair. By voting (blank, for yourself, for Mickey Mouse) you say "I didn't like any of the candidates, but I'm ready to accept the result of the majority", thereby giving more legitimacy to whoever is elected.

Not voting can be dissent (I disagree with the process, I don't think it's fair etc) or simply apathy. But in either case it gives less legitimacy to whoever is elected. And that's important: if you don't think it's a fair election/process then you don't want to give the legitimacy.

Re:Stay Gold, America by pjc50 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:51AM (#42621247)
I don't think you've adapted to the level of motivated reasoning in current politics: if people want to declare the election illegitimate, they will do so, and they can make up claims about how it's illegitimate faster than you can debunk them.
Re:Stay Gold, America by sixstringtheory on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:40AM (#42621188)
Who here believes Trump will pull punches because the election wasn’t satisfactorily legitimizing?

If you get killed on the high ground, you’re still dead.

Re:Stay Gold, America by Narkov on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:07AM (#42621037)
> Compulsory voting removes an important signal where participation indicates the legitimacy.

Why on earth would you prefer a signal of legitimacy over 70/80/90% vote participation? Get people engaged.

Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:10AM (#42621062)
Is that rhetorical? It's the de-facto choice in most liberal democracies for exactly the reason I mentioned.
Re:Stay Gold, America by rstuart4133 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @06:24AM (#42621380)
Do you have a citation for this, or is it just something you've come to believe?
Re:Stay Gold, America by alkonaut on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @07:33AM (#42621734)
Come to believe, only. But the arguments for and against are pretty clearly laid out each time there is an election (and of course any other time like https://www.idea.int/data-tools/data/voter-turnout-database/...)

(It's far from the only reason states don't use compulsory voting, I should say. There are many reasons both to have compulsory voting, and many arguments against. But the fact I was trying to point to was that the vast majority of countries don't use mandatory voting - because, one must assume, they feel the cons outweigh the pros)

Re:Stay Gold, America by rstuart4133 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @05:00PM (#42628155)
I'll change a few words, and hopefully illustrate why "[countries] feel the cons out weight the pros", doesn't look the most likely explanation to me:

"There are many reasons both to have gerrymander and not have gerrymander. The USA has gerrymander, because, one must assume, the USA feels the pros outweigh the cons."

Countries don't make the laws. They delegate that job to politicians. It should come as no surprise that even for an obviously anti-democratic practice like gerrymander, politicians get away with adding laws that favour them personally over democracy.

As for the arguments on www.idea.int, they say the leading one is "the leading argument against compulsory voting is that it is not consistent with the freedom associated with democracy". It's a circular argument. You don't have complete freedom under democracy, and there is no definitive list of freedoms democracy does give you. It varies from country to country. In some countries you don't have the freedom to not vote. So the argument made is really: "the leading argument against compulsory voting is that it is not consistent with the freedom associated with definition of democracy I just made up".

The other argument they raise is "random votes". True, there are random votes - 7.3% according to them. But that 7.3% is swamped by the 40% of additional voters in the USA who vote if you had compulsory voting. Besides, I'm suspicious of that 7.3% figure. In Australia we measure these things as best we can, and the figure is 1% .. 2%. Informal votes are around 5%, which if you add them together does bring the total to 7%. A vote is counted as informal votes when it's impossible to determine the voters intentions. Some are deliberate protests, but it seems most are just mistakes. In any case, they aren't "random votes" and don't effect the outcome directly so the 7.3% figure is misleading.

I've never head an Australian (where we do have compulsory voting) make what www.idea.int says is the leading argument for compulsory voting, which is that "decisions made by democratically elected governments are more legitimate when higher". Again, since I've never seen a solid definition of "legitimately elected government", I suspect it also suffers from the "definition I just made up" problem. I fact I've never heard anyone make any of the arguments on www.idea.int's list.

What Australians do say is it makes detecting many types of voting fraud easier, because it becomes trivially easy to check people votes just once: count the votes. Because detecting voting fraud is easy, there are no stringent ID checks. You just turn up, no ID required, get your name crossed off the electoral roll, get your ballot paper and vote (or not). So it in compulsory effect makes it easier to cast a vote. It also makes voter disenfranchisement much harder for a pollie to pull off, because people start yelling loudly if they cop a fine because someone makes it near impossible. Surprise, surprise, disenfranchisement is common in the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_Unite... It's not a thing in Australia.

Those are clear and obvious effects. A debatable one that I think is true is it pulls the vote toward the centre. The people pushing for extreme views always vote because they want things to change. Those that are happy with things as they are sometimes assume it will continue if they do nothing.

[dead]
Re:Stay Gold, America by dijit on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:46AM (#42620915)
Since this is illegal in most western democracies, I would have told the police if I had witnessed this.

In fact, in the UK the polling staff are told that they need to assess the competence of the person voting ahead of time and that the person voting must do so alone and without duress, else they should not permit the vote to be accepted.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/...

> You’ll talk to voters as they arrive and make sure they know what to do.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/p...

> The role of polling station staff is to ensure that voters are able to cast their vote in secret, free from influence and in a calm atmosphere.

Re:Stay Gold, America by geraldwhen on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @02:21PM (#42626217)
In the US I suspect it’s common. In states with mail in voting, I suspect the fraud is even worse.

Yes a real person voted. But no they did not have any clue what they were doing when they did.

Re:Stay Gold, America by pjc50 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:55AM (#42620960)
That's pretty representative of the elected: congresspeople and presidential candidates who are far too old and steered around by advisors.
Re:Stay Gold, America by noduerme on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:53AM (#42620946)
You should see how security handles drunk people at the slot machines in Vegas. Just recently a friend saw them come over, prop up a dead drunk guy, reach into his pocket, put money in his hand and help him feed it into the machine.

(My response was: That security guard should get a raise; you really need more minimum wage employees who care that much about the company /s)

Re:Stay Gold, America by geraldwhen on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @02:28PM (#42626299)
Gambling against the house is a sad sight. But security maneuvering a passed out drunk person is much worse still.
Re:Stay Gold, America by ropable on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @07:28PM (#42629493)
Couldn't disagree harder. "Participation indicates the legitimacy" is an absurd inference, and does not follow at all. By this argument, non-participation indicates a preference for a non-voting alternative (such as hereditary rule).
Re:Stay Gold, America by eru on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @10:45PM (#42630683)
My adopted home of Singapore has something like compulsory voting.

But the only punishment you get for not voting is at most a small fine and that you have to jump through some hoops to get on the register of voters again. But it seems to work in practice to get people to turn out.