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Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by latexr on Monday December 30, 2024 @08:57AM (#42549291)
> The International Chess Federation (FIDE) has now relaxed its dress code to allow "elegant minor deviations".

> Those deviations "may, in particular, include appropriate jeans matching the jacket", the new rules state.

> (…)

> "Special assistants" will be on hand to help judges decide whether players' outfits are acceptable, according to Mr Dvorkovich.

This whole saga is so unbelievably stupid. What’s the deal with the overly strict dress code in the first place?

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by yodsanklai on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:41AM (#42549652)
Lots of sports have dress codes. Having jeans matching jackets isn't more stupid than let say only "white or blue" gis in Judo, or only-white attire in some tennis tournaments. It's part of the folklore and many people are attached to traditions.

There are also many precedents of athletes challenging the dress-code, I can think of Serena Williams at French Tennis Open.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/16/sport/serena-williams-ico...

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by zeroonetwothree on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:44AM (#42550281)
Chess isn’t a sport. How many game tournaments have dress codes?
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by kbmr on Monday December 30, 2024 @11:02AM (#42550479)
It is a mental sport
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by glimshe on Monday December 30, 2024 @04:53PM (#42553970)
They probably have some sort of dress code (no flip flops, no shirtless), but usually not this strict.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by EA-3167 on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:43AM (#42550270)
In what world is chess a sport? It's a board game, they are not athletes, and marketing chess as a sport just comes across as either a financial decision, or delusional to me. The fact that chess isn't a sport doesn't make it any less valid or valuable, any less respectable, but it does mean that comparing it to tennis is downright odd.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by coliveira on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:49AM (#42550340)
Who are you to decide if chess is a sport or not? The practitioners think it is, so that's what matters.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by freehorse on Monday December 30, 2024 @11:07AM (#42550539)
It does not matter if we say it is a sport or not, it is not a sensible argument because the point of what uniforms are allowed and what not in sports have either to do with functionality (certain pieces of clothes can improve performance, and rules have to assert which are the specific bounds for that) or advertising/other reasons (a lot of which are actually _bad_ reasons, see certain female dress codes). These arguments have nothing to do with chess, so it makes no sense to apply this line of argumentation here.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by yodsanklai on Monday December 30, 2024 @11:42AM (#42550900)
Uniforms in sports have often to do with tradition (on top of the aspects you mentioned). Look at Golf, Tennis or Judo/BJJ dress codes for instance. Most sports have a dress code and if you look into the details, there are often arbitrary elements.

Many other social activities which you may not call sport have dress codes too. On the top of my head, I can think of Bridge or Snooker. Nothing really fundamentally peculiar with Chess. I don't blame Carlsen for asking to review the rules though.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by EA-3167 on Monday December 30, 2024 @05:16PM (#42554142)
Just to make a point here, Judo/BJJ stand out because their "dress codes" are actually part of how the sport works in practice. A lot of throws and holds involve the gi, so standardizing what's worn (which has been done in the case of Judo for a very long time) isn't just aesthetic or traditional. I don't believe that in the case of, for example golf, the dress code is functional.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by yodsanklai on Tuesday December 31, 2024 @01:01AM (#42556777)
I was specifically referring to the color. You can't show up with a green gi. Actually, it was controversial when blue gis were introduced in the late 90s. In Judo, it's currently only white or blue.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by freehorse on Monday December 30, 2024 @05:58PM (#42554518)
But different chess tournaments have different dress codes. Maybe FIDE has a most strict one but I don’t see how this is a universal chess tradition.

Moreover, in the examples you give clothes also serve a practical use within the game itself, except maybe golf not as significantly. But golf is also another peculiar case of a sport and one that carries different traditions. Eg esp for BJJ I would say clothes are important part of the game in ways that it is not for chess.

I agree that FIDE’s dress code is prob more similar to dress code of social activities like bridge. But I would also expect some people to get confused over how strict these are from time to time, and ppl certainly do not become grandmasters by memorising dress code rules. This has happened before anyway and ppl did not think it was an intentional act of activism to dress in shorts either [0].

[0] https://www.chess.com/news/view/dress-code-incident-at-world...

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by ncruces on Monday December 30, 2024 @05:42PM (#42554368)
So players should be allowed to play shirtless, in a bikini, in underwear?

Maybe it's stupid that it's this strict, but many of these “sports” (or whatever you want to call them) have a dress code.

Chess's is definitely not stricter than (e.g.) snooker's.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by EA-3167 on Monday December 30, 2024 @11:20AM (#42550675)
Do they think it's a sport? From what I can see on places like r/Chess and Chess.com that's far from being the case; at best it's an ongoing debate. Mostly though it seems to be a matter of marketing, not by the average player, but by the industries which cater to them and want to grow the game.

For me though, I think a good test is that if you can play it via long-term correspondence, it isn't a sport or any sort of athletic activity. I don't feel like gatekeeping sport as strenuous physical activity, but there surely has to be at least some somatic component.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by mongol on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:25AM (#42549508)
Tradition? I have no idea. But many events come with a dress code, and in many sports it is pretty strict even though it does not neccessarily have to be. I can see it both ways - the way you dress have nothing to do with how you play. But on the other hand, if there is supposed to be a certain atmosphere and mood at the event, a dress code is not unheard of.

I recall when Kenya (?) wanted to play with sleeveless jerseys in the FIFA World Cup, similar to have like they have in basketball. That did not work out - they had to add sleeves in short order.

EDIT: It was Cameroon in the Africa Cup. Link: https://www.puma-catchup.com/africa-cup-perfect-stage-scanda...

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by acomjean on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:45AM (#42550302)
In soccer/footbal one can see how not having sleeves is a hit to the space of the walking advertisements that are uniforms these days.

Not having huge variations in uniforms for team sports seems to make some sense to me (you can't have everyone wearing a different color...) for something like tennis or chess I can't see how it matters much.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by tacone on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:31AM (#42549560)
Not tradition. From what I got over the internet, apparently (normal) jeans where allowed in the past and a lot of players were wearing them.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by MrMcCall on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:31AM (#42549559)
I find 'tradition' to nearly always be merely an excuse to keep acting like a purblind fool. They're just a bunch of self-superior non-thinkers who don't give a damn about anyone from other cultures. They tend to lack curiosity or compassion, so, as such, they are really just a bunch of dullards.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by bfdm on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:23AM (#42550054)
As is the explanation all too often, dress codes are simply exclusionary. They're meant to exclude those that do not conform (whether or why they cannot conform or refuse to is secondary).

All the other bluster about tradition and standards or whatever else is all just covering fire to exclusionary policy. Whether that be race based, gender based, class based or otherwise, it's a basis for excluding or removing those outside your group who can't or won't bend to your requirements.

The one and only exception I know of to this is safety dress codes, like loose long hair or garments around certain machinery that could catch those. The rest can go to hell.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by RonaldDump on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:35AM (#42550184)
The kind of people who say this about White culture (tennis, golf, chess, etc) cream themselves over the rich vibrant culture of traditional dress in literally any non-White sport or ritual.

If a White professional sumo wrestler insisted on Speedos or boardshorts as a protest against discriminatory Japanese garb, would he be a freedom fighter, in your view? A disrespectful buffoon in mine.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by bfdm on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:48AM (#42550333)
If there isn't a physical or functional justification for the outfit, yea let people wear that they want. Who cares.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by polotics on Wednesday January 01, 2025 @04:07PM (#42569301)
Wow chess is "white culture" now?

May I suggest you visit Wikipedia maybe?

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by protonbob on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:31AM (#42550143)
What's wrong with exclusion? They want to exclude people from the tournament that don't want to follow a traditional dress code.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by bfdm on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:41AM (#42550244)
Private facilities and groups are free to have those policies, but I also think its reasonable and expected for members to object and change the rules over time, especially the elites.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by mongol on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:27AM (#42550098)
What would you say about a dress code at a wedding or a funeral? Are they decided in order to exclude?
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by bfdm on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:38AM (#42550214)
Yes, they are. Typically these are enforced as flexible social norms, though, with individuals free to determine reasonable deviations within convention. They'll rarely be used to remove someone. It's an implied dress code, effectively, but with considerable grey area.

Some weddings are explicit, sure. And that's a couple's choice, to exclude some of their friends and family.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by ithkuil on Monday December 30, 2024 @05:01PM (#42554028)
Don't you think there is a difference between accidental and intentional exclusion?
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by Veen on Monday December 30, 2024 @03:31PM (#42553172)
Often, excluding people who won't conform is necessary if a community is to achieve its aims.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by nashashmi on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:27AM (#42549527)
It’s to throw out people coming in tank tops. They don’t have a long list of donts. They have a short list of do’s. Do wear formal clothing like a dress coat and dress pants.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by latexr on Monday December 30, 2024 @03:10PM (#42552953)
> They don’t have a long list of donts. They have a short list of do’s.

That is incorrect. They do have a list of don’ts. See 3b and 3d.

https://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2013/FIDE/Proposal_...

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by michaelt on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:54AM (#42550405)
> What’s the deal with the overly strict dress code in the first place?

Some organisations have a great deal of cultural inertia

If I start a club that requires all members to wear red trousers, then people who hate red trousers won't join, while people who love them will join in great numbers.

Members who are ambivalent about red trousers won't feel comfortable enforcing the rules, so they won't take the junior positions of power that lead to senior positions of power.

I'm pretty sure this is why London still have some private members' clubs that will insist on all men wearing a tie.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by netdevphoenix on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:11AM (#42549393)
Sounds like a power move by the FIDE to project dominance over its members and a way to control its public perception
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by iambateman on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:19AM (#42549454)
Well, they had to straight back down to keep Magnus, so it makes sense that they're trying to project a little control.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by MrMcCall on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:23AM (#42549499)
Yes, indeed. And all because the most important thing they are really protecting is that they are needed at all, when the reality is that they should be unceremoniously ejected from all such endeavors, once and for all.

True democracy should be present in all organizations, guided by compassion for all its members and the communities they affect.

It's time to retire the 'old guard'.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by endoblast on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:29AM (#42549544)
>appropriate jeans matching the jacket

Double denim?

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by blipvert on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:55AM (#42549796)
Wouldn’t want to upset the (ahem) Status Quo.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by lupusreal on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:34AM (#42549595)
Canadian Tuxedo.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by ycombinatrix on Monday December 30, 2024 @03:14PM (#42552997)
Of course. How else would one match the jeans?
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by aczerepinski on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:10AM (#42549381)
Gives me the impression that you aren’t even allowed to play chess if you aren’t a nerd.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by sys_64738 on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:52AM (#42549760)
A denim vest? This sounds like an episode of Seinfeld.
Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by Loudergood on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:51AM (#42549751)
You do need to have a minimum though.

Otherwise you get comedy like this at a Magic the Gathering tournament. (warning lots of plumbers crack)

https://imgur.com/a/grand-prix-richmond-crackstyle-SjcgE

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by bflesch on Monday December 30, 2024 @10:12AM (#42549956)
Your argument is very weak.

The picture you've shared is at least two decades old at this point. And people showing their asscracks can also happen with suits, especially if someone is not used to wearing a suit often (e.g. it's not perfectly fit to their body shape).

On top of that if organizers are hoarding hundreds of people in what looks like a multi-purpose location on the cheapest chairs/tables possible, then why should these people who need to sit and concentrate for many hours be forced to do it in expensive/rarely-used clothing.

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by ycombinatrix on Monday December 30, 2024 @03:41PM (#42553264)
>people showing their asscracks can also happen with suits, especially if someone is not used to wearing a suit

citation needed

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by latexr on Monday December 30, 2024 @03:19PM (#42553059)
> You do need to have a minimum though.

But my question was precisely why is the minimum so high? Sure, maybe don’t allow someone to play naked or with a t-shirt stamped with gore or racist imagery. But jeans? Come on. Looking at the rules, I wonder if they’d also, for example, prevent a man from playing in a skirt that would otherwise be acceptable for a woman.

https://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2013/FIDE/Proposal_...

Re:Chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen rejoins tournament he qu... by MrMcCall on Monday December 30, 2024 @09:20AM (#42549467)
Old people rarely like to see things change from what they deemed 'acceptable' in their life. As people get older, most people tend to become more 'conservative' in their view of how things are changing. It is usually much worse in people of means, who are the people that have the money and connections to be FIDE or govt or business leaders, in other words: 'money people'. All such positions involve much politicking, which always involves ingratiating their own views on how the situation should be presented and seen.

Those sorts of people are always superfluous inefficiencies that gum up progress. The sooner we remove them from positions of influence, the sooner we can begin making this world a better place for one and all.