I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline).
Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress.
While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least.
in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp.
the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.
I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
> yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere
But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections.
If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.
i think it helps to phrase it differently. don't say "i am lonely", say, "i work alone and i like to sozialize". or "i am a very social person and i don't get enough interaction at work". to a coworker you could say: " i enjoy talking to you, want to hang out after work" or something like that.
i agree that "i am lonely" potentially comes across as needy, so i would focus on the general positive aspects of socializing.
i should note that i didn't have any opportunity to apply these myself but i was occasionally on the receiving side being invited to join others without any specific reason other than hanging out together. which is actually another approach. look for existing groups and see if you can join them
Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?
What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde...
They have "lodges" (clubs) which I would assume are quite variable but many have bars in them. They do a lot of community-service work.
I went to an event in an Elks Lodge a long time ago, I think it was Thanksgiving. My grandfather was an Elk. (Yes, that sounds funny if you don't know who the Elks are.) I didn't see the bar, if there was one, but the atmosphere was really nice: older folks but very outgoing and friendly.
Membership criteria, from their home page:
* Be at least 21 years of age.
* Believe in God.
* Be a citizen of the United States who pledges allegiance to and salutes the American Flag.
* Be of good character.
If you meet these criteria I think it'd be worth looking into a membership, even if just as a hedge against loneliness in case things don't work out as you planned.
Oh, and I see the Canadians have their own version, with a more modern website:
The citizenship requirement is asinine (immigrants are great at conversation, almost by necessity!) and the god thing would be off putting….
He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building.
And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier.
Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders
> But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway.
... > The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one.
>Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.”
...
> The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.”
> The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of its ritual from the Freemasons, then one of the largest organizations in the country. By 1910, Elks done away with almost all of the ritual — including secret handshakes and passwords — and settled into the function they held for much of the 20th century: a group of (white) men, initiated only upon recommendation from another member of the lodge, who paid yearly dues, enjoyed lavish facilities built with those dues, and donated time and money to local, state, and national charities.
note that hanging out and drinking w/out money IS legal, but as soon as you sell a hot dog or a beer, boom now the state has some lawyers for you to talk to and you're 100% blocked until we are satisfied you have done everything we want.
I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
What is there to fund? You just have to advertise a bit a meetup in some social medias and choose a place.
During the actual event, you aren't the one serving alcohol, there is nothing to be liable with and people are free to order non alcohol drinks.
It is just random people meeting at a bar.
As it was mentioned in the comments, it usually boils down to regulation and financial problems to have a place like that, unless you've been grandfathered in.
Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises.
Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.
That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
> Case in point: why work parties are so dry?
I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer.
Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
I understand some people fun is to organise for other folk's fun, that's a generous motivation. But sometimes just behaving/organizing the way you likes it yourself makes other more confortable. Just tell them what food you'll prepare, if smoking inside/window is allowed and at what time you'll be ready. If they're grown up they'll manage to have fun by themselves, they come to see you not for your food.
I don't think this is anything new. Back one or two centuries ago there were clubs and societies for people having common interests, social classes and behaviors.
> A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I think you overthink it. The one who organize is the one who decides. You define a place, people adapts or don't come. Simple as that.
In any group of friends or acquaintance, there are those that comes since the beginning, other who are always late, some who always leave early, some who are heavy smokers and spend all their time smoking outside, others who can't handle the smoke and stay inside and some who adapt and spend time in both area. Some people who always disappear for a while. In that group, some people barely spend time together. That is fine, you don't have to be the all of us together from start to finish.
Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.
I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.
Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well.
Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out.
It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..
As a probably permanent expat with kids, I've been looking for some sort of more social and family oriented culture to raise them, and stuff like that sounds amazing. If we could just pick and choose the parts that each culture excels at!
Though with Alireza I was referring to Alireza Firouzja - a top 10 chess player in the world who also ended up in France like the earlier poster.
Can’t find Chez Amel, is it Chez Adel? Looks like an unpretentious casual and cosy bar, exactly my type thanks!
Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place.
These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.
I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them.
Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved.
So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants.
There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.
eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever.
I've long wondered how to recreate such venues.
Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers).
But the qwan is just a bit off.
Why?
Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...)
Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something.
Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places".
/ramble
From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here...
My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy.
Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.
I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me.
I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months.
I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)
I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!