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Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by bdangubic on Sunday December 15, 2024 @08:32PM (#42427245)
Land of free speech? Maybe in like a John Wayne movie was this ever true…

Like you know other parts of Bill or “Rights” like “prohibiting unreasonable searches and seizures” except like your toothpaste at the airport… Americans are generally too funny thinking it is still “land of the free”

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by hyperpape on Sunday December 15, 2024 @08:40PM (#42427280)
> Land of free speech? Maybe in like a John Wayne movie was this ever true…

What country would you say has stronger free speech protections than the US? I won't say there's none, because there are roughly 200 countries, and I don't know enough about many of them, but I cannot name one.

Not the UK, France or Germany, and I'd be surprised to find any other European country.

For a sampling of other laws/measures:

  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult_(legal)
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press#/media/File:World_Map_of_the_Freedom_of_the_Press_Status,_OWID.svg
Now...if this ban sticks, it will make your snark a lot more valid, starting with the year 2025.
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by JimDabell on Sunday December 15, 2024 @09:57PM (#42427631)
The USA is not especially high up on the World Press Freedom Index:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index

My main problem with free speech in America is how it’s become some sort of unquestionable belief that it’s absolute. There are many instances of freedom of speech being curtailed by the USA government, yet they are somehow redefined into some sort of “unspeech” and don’t count instead of being honest and saying “yes, we restrict speech on this occasion for X reason”. It’s a very dangerous Orwellian approach to not allow yourself to see when your freedoms are being restricted.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by tgma on Sunday December 15, 2024 @10:14PM (#42427703)
This list is reminiscent of "happiness index" which simply encodes a certain ideology via a benchmark, the components of which a reasonable American does not necessarily agree with being the utmost important factors, and only is taken seriously if abstracted and lipsticked by generic names like "press freedom" or "happiness".

The simple example that UK is ranked higher than US is prima facie evidence that it is complete bullshit, considering the lack of First Amendment and much stricter libel laws that UK media has to worry about.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by fragmede on Sunday December 15, 2024 @11:01PM (#42427917)
The two examples of that are CSAM, which makes obvious sense to restrict, and copyright infringing material. It might make business sense not to let people post the latest Disney movie but it just goes to show the first amendment isn't absolute.
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by bdangubic on Sunday December 15, 2024 @08:53PM (#42427338)
it is not snark, I am European living most of my adult life in the US and I have had more than one laugh over the years with “we are land of the free”
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by mattmaroon on Sunday December 15, 2024 @09:43PM (#42427545)
You’re thinking in binary terms about a gradient.
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by bdangubic on Monday December 16, 2024 @08:38AM (#42430818)
freedom being gradient sounds a lot like part of a speech of a dictator :)
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by mattmaroon on Monday December 16, 2024 @12:05PM (#42432921)
It’s a spectrum. Some places are more free than others, and we’re as far toward the free end of the spectrum as anyone unless you count places where the government has totally collapsed. I suppose there are anarchies somewhere but they’re never stable.

You can say “land of the free my ass” every time a law prevents you from doing something you want, but that doesn’t mean other places have more freedom.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by bdangubic on Monday December 16, 2024 @03:23PM (#42435005)
I agree 100%.

I never said that other places have more freedom though. I just find it fascinating that American really believe in their "rights" and frequently mock other countries, societies, etc...

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by rsanek on Sunday December 15, 2024 @10:08PM (#42427681)
US doesn't rank at the top, but is still rated as quite free by Freedom House https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort...

About 74 points higher than China based on my math

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by jwarden on Sunday December 15, 2024 @09:59PM (#42427646)
Something doesn’t have to be perfect to be good. Most American’s recognize and lament the erosion of freedoms over the years, while still valuing the many that remain.

I don’t think they should be be laughed at for that.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by sourcepluck on Sunday December 15, 2024 @10:11PM (#42427694)
Even very intelligent people will accept this argument for America, and then reject it for often literally every other country.

Imagine I made the same argument for Russia, or China, or North Korea, or Syria, or Venezuela, or some other country the Western mainstream media says is bad. You'd presumably come up with a reason - immediately, effortlessly, almost without thinking - why it didn't apply in that case, and that that country really was bad, and their imperfections really meant they were not good.

Unlike the U.S., which simply cannot fall out of favour with some people, no matter what they do.

If an organisation doesn't serve its purpose, whether through ignorance, stupidity, or malice, it should be either broken up or restructured. There's no reason not to do this with businesses, states, etc, other than the usual quasi-religious ones, centered around various tired and confused dogmas involving markets, freedom, human nature, and that sort of thing.

Summary: Human beings should be given second chances, and third chances, and so on, as many chances as we can give them. Organisations on the other hand should be given one chance. We owe them nothing.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by wiseowise on Monday December 16, 2024 @02:41AM (#42428841)
As someone that had to deal with one of the countries in your list - they’re bad.
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by sourcepluck on Monday December 16, 2024 @09:20AM (#42431169)
At no stage in my argument did I make any point contrary to that, and my argument is in no way about that.

The point is simply that U.S. democracy is visibly in tatters. Clinging on to this notion that still, in spite of all the evidence in front of our eyes, the U.S. is somehow fundamentally and essentially different to the other historical empires, is just your usual bog-standard nationalist delusion.

I think that the founding story of the States is beautiful, and that some of the early writing is really quite something (I'm thinking of Paine in particular here). And I'm very fond of some of the other cultural output. It's not "pleasant" to face the reality of the modern day U.S.A., is what I'm saying, but to hope to improve the state of the world, it has to be done.

There are many statistical datapoints which suggest the country is doing very poorly socially. Then it seems to me that a serious case can be made that the vast network of state, semi-private and private institutions over there involved in the "security" sector (arms, cyber, related fields) has gotten completely out of hand and answers effectively to itself only.

I'm trying to refrain from making specific examples here, because any mention of a specific issue will result in the assumption that some partisan point is being made. Accepting that risk, perhaps we could: look at the president; look at what the alternatives were; look at the previous presidents from the last decades; look at the legal system; look at the prison system; look at povery rates; look at crime rates; look at political prisoners; look at the increase in attacks on the media; look at military spending; look at straightforward, old-fashioned corruption; look at drone strikes; look at studies of how the state's actions tracks with polls of what the populace want; etc etc.

At a certain point, it's hard to believe in the intellectual integrity of observers who cling on to the argument: "ah, but look, that other country is worse!" This is an obvious race to the bottom, and can excuse any level of depravity. Again, it's hard to see how this belief is possible to hold without a solid dose of quasi-religious nationalist fervour.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by _tik_ on Monday December 16, 2024 @01:21AM (#42428445)
It can be good for some and bad for others, especially as someone who is not born in China but is of Chinese descent. I usually avoid sharing my opinion on geopolitics outside the family and prefer to keep to myself if I prefer Chinese brands over Western ones to avoid being judged. The government can use the law to target Chinese-born individuals, and initiatives like the 'Chinese Initiative' make me more cautious and aware of my race.
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by rodgerd on Sunday December 15, 2024 @08:33PM (#42427248)
Hayes Code. Comics Code Authority.

And so on and so forth.

Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by ImJamal on Sunday December 15, 2024 @09:16PM (#42427436)
None of those were laws?
Re:US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove Tik... by kombookcha on Monday December 16, 2024 @05:13AM (#42429677)
The Hayes Code exists to have a standardized industry guideline in response to individual states issuing dozens of differing film censorship bills. So while it is not a law, it is a guideline for how to be compliant with a rapidly proliferating number of censorship laws.