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Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Dalewyn on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @07:30AM (#42245123)
>it provides a perspective almost entirely seperated from the reality most people face.

The entirety of western entertainment seems to have forgotten that the whole fucking point of leisure activities is to escape from the hellscape that is life and reality. Japanese entertainment by and large is precisely that escape, the pressure valve to let loose and be just happy for a while.

A lot of people here take offense when western entertainment is called "woke", with a common rebuttal being that "woke" isn't well defined. Well tell you what, I'll help define it: "Woke" entertainment is entertainment that incorporates or outright is real life and particularly specific facets of real life, often with no reason for that incorporation or nature insofar as leisure is concerned. The obligatory black man or the obligatory powerful(?) woman to check the boxes, for some examples.

Japanese entertainment has none of that bullshit, even if it otherwise is rife with tropes. Entertainment that constantly shouts at you about real life is shitty entertainment.

Conversely, Japanese entertainment would die overnight if literally anyone else produces decent and simply enjoyable entertainment. Japanese entertainment is devoid of innovation now, a lot of it is rehashes upon rehashes and the isekai genre being as long-lived as it is is a huge symptom.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by simgt on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @07:59AM (#42245312)
I don't know if that was your intention, but I basically understand from your comment that black men and powerful women are two components of reality that are bothering you to start with. Yes all new British and American productions are ticking these two boxes, but it's not shouting at all of us.

I suspect for the Japanese women who are putting in perspective the extreme conservatism on gender roles prevalent in their country, most Japanese fiction shouts at them about real life too.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Dalewyn on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:07AM (#42245377)
>I basically understand from your comment that black men and powerful women are two components of reality that are bothering you to start with.

They were just examples, I'm deeply annoyed at anything concerning acute political/social activism in entertainment because it's simply not what I wanted to spend my leisure time on.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by makerdiety on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:17AM (#42245445)
Isn't being annoyed at something sociopolitical and expressing that feeling, sharing your concerns with anyone who will listen, itself a sociopolitical act?

Because it is.

I'm not trying to gaslight you, insofar as reason itself agrees with my proposition.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Dalewyn on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:26AM (#42245514)
I agree, it's a sociopolitical demand to stop shitting up my leisure time.

There's a good way and a bad way to have elements in entertainment. Using the "black man" example again, a good example are the Redguards in The Elder Scrolls games. I wasn't annoyed, the Redguards were a natural and very good part of the world building and lore and served to better entertain me.

A bad example on the other hand is literally any of the "obligatory black man" now seen everywhere. He doesn't serve any purpose other than to say that there's a black man.

I want more Redguards in my entertainment, not obligatory black men.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by makerdiety on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:50AM (#42245699)
I'm not Elon Musk or Donald Trump. Sending your complaints of mainstream culture to me will not result in your political representation and its voice being heard. I am unable to effectively sponsor and defend your proposed alternative dynamics.

But! If I am like a techno-angel sent from the Heavens above, then what I can do is suggest to you that exit, as opposed to voice, is a sociopolitical act that you should consider. Exit from the mainstream culture is your best bet.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by morkalork on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @09:11AM (#42245901)
The token characters and checkboxes are a symptom of design-by-committee corporate culture anyways and even without them, the quality isn't going to be any better because again, it's corporate slop.
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by makerdiety on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @09:22AM (#42246001)
This only means that there's a pervasive cultural synagogue/cathedral that has infected behavior through pedagogical means. Namely, education itself has been made to serve the interests of all possible economics that can occur within the borders of global liberal democracy.

This also only means that any sociopolitical exit from the zombie invasion must at least be as high as considering a departure from common epistemology.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by scarmig on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @10:46AM (#42246745)
Imagine a world where literature was preoccupied with height. A character is always slotted in who's explicitly the token short character, and the storyline is always, subtly or not, written to highlight how the world is biased against short people. Authors are very cautious about depicting a short person with any negative trait; when they do, a direct line is drawn between the social circumstances they encountered and their future actions.

This would be exhausting, and people would rightly start to roll their eyes at it. And it would be fine for readers to object to it, even as short people are a component of reality. It wouldn't mean the complainant finds short people objectionable in themselves, but simply that they don't think height is a defining part of reality that all of literature is obligated to address.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by simgt on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:35AM (#42247136)
> Imagine a world where literature was preoccupied with height.

Smart of you to have picked one of the few human characteristics that hasn't been used to justify discriminations and very unfortunate historical events... In our world it's not just literature that is very preoccupied with skin colour and gender.

> It wouldn't mean the complainant finds short people objectionable in themselves, but simply that they don't think height is a defining part of reality that all of literature is obligated to address.

You have it reversed, if it's not a defining part of someone's reality, why would one even care whether it's addressed in fiction or not? The person I was answering to does care, a lot, to the point that swinging one way or another can ruin their experience.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by scarmig on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @12:02PM (#42247449)
Not getting into how we define what are valid complaints vs invalid, because that's besides the point.

You'd find it exhausting. People similarly find the race and gender preoccupation exhausting. Your justification for the different treatment seems to be "for these categories, people are obligated to not find them exhausting, but not for other categories." But that's not well-motivated.

In a height-preoccupied literary world, can you imagine objecting to the height preoccupation? If you did, how could you justify it, if it's not a defining part of your existence?

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by PrismCrystal on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:47AM (#42247254)
"one of the few human characteristics that hasn't been used to justify discriminations"

Of course it has. That notions like “Napoleon complex” circulate in pop culture, suggests that society broadly considers short-statured people to be somehow disadvantaged and, moreover, it can be funny when the short-statured kick against the pricks. The demand that a suitable male partner ought to be over six feet tall, is absolutely widespread, both in match-seeking profiles on online-dating platforms and in dating fora where women give advice to each other. (Or, if you want to reverse the sexes, Truffaut’s gag in Baisers volés about dating a tall girl, wouldn’t work if people broadly didn’t feel that there was something weird about this.)

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by ValentinA23 on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @12:11PM (#42247542)
>I suspect for the Japanese women who are putting in perspective the extreme conservatism on gender roles prevalent in their country, most Japanese fiction shouts at them about real life too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-19674306

The 15th of each month is a big day for 36-year-old Yoshihiro Nozawa: it is the day he gets paid.

But every month, he hands over his entire salary to his wife Masami.

She controls the household budget and gives him a monthly pocket money of 30,000 yen ($381; £243). Despite being the breadwinner, that is all the money he can spend on himself over the next 30 days.

"The last five days from the 10th of each month are usually the toughest," says Yoshihiro.

[...]

47-year-old Taisaku Kubo has been getting 50,000 yen a month from his wife Yuriko for the past 15 years.

He has tried to negotiate a pay rise each year but his wife makes a presentation to explain why it cannot be done.

"She draws a pie chart of our household budget to explain why I cannot get more pocket money," says Taisaku.

[...]

So why don't men start controlling the household budgets themselves?

"I don't think many men hand over their entire salaries happily," says career consultant Takao Maekawa of FeelWorks.

"But they feel it's their obligation to earn money for the family even if it means they have to suffer themselves."

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by PrismCrystal on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:15AM (#42245434)
"the whole fucking point of leisure activities is to escape from the hellscape that is life and reality"

I get that you don’t like woke, but that is too blanket a claim. There has just too much popular literature across America and Europe that has directly dealt with dire social and political trends of the day. Even when it comes to the issue of American race relations and the impact of slavery, Uncle Tom’s Cabin was one of the bestselling books of the 19th century, so fiction readers clearly weren’t interested only in escape.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by RockRobotRock on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @07:35AM (#42245156)
Isekai slop is bad on purpose. The target demo is hikikomori and otaku males. I don't think it's that deep.
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Dalewyn on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @07:48AM (#42245236)
That is about as uneducated a take as one could possibly have.

Keep in mind "isekai" as a genre also exists in western entertainment; A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court and The Chronicles of Narnia are some prominent and famous examples. Are those specifically for shut-ins and nerds too?

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by RockRobotRock on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:18AM (#42245447)
Sorry if I struck a nerve, I was being slightly hyperbolic, but why do you think I'm uneducated? I also should have said I was specifically referring to anime since I think that's what most people think of when they hear "isekai".
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by corimaith on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:16AM (#42245436)
When we talk about isekai in modern contexts we do commonly refer to the post 2015 Narou-Isekai where one certainly draws a distinction between isekai before 2015 or after.

The thing about "old" isekai is that they exist more as fantasy stories with specific messages and themes, where Narou-Isekai can be specifically placed in the context of the latest evolution of the Otaku after the failure of sekai-kei and the increasing self-indulgence from CGCDT, Battle-Harems all the way to Isekai.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by kibwen on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @07:58AM (#42245308)
> the whole fucking point of leisure activities is to escape from the hellscape that is life and reality

To claim that escapism is the sole purpose of art is certainly a bold statement. Why bother reflecting on human society when we can just do our best to jam our fingers in our ears and ignore it?

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by makerdiety on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:20AM (#42245461)
If capitalism wasn't the leviathan that it was, then I wouldn't blame anyone for trying to escape the life that capitalist neo-colonialism has brought into existence. Pretty soon, at this rate, life itself will be a subordinate of the democratic global capital project.
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by akimbostrawman on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:21AM (#42245473)
excuse me why are you browsing hn which is a leisure activity instead of fighting world hunger? Why are you ignoring starving people?
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by kibwen on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @10:26AM (#42246566)
Relevant username?
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by akimbostrawman on Thursday November 28, 2024 @09:08AM (#42265357)
on relevant comment
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by evanjrowley on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @10:45AM (#42246729)
I value entertainment that demonstrates how to thrive more than "entertainment" that demonstrates struggle. Struggle is important and necessary, but it should never be an end unto itself. True entertainment should uphold the dignity of as many people as possible.
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Barrin92 on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:27AM (#42245520)
This take is in the "Why did they put politics into my Metal Gear?!" category. Japanese fiction continues to win over people precisely because it's more than just pure entertainment. Japanese creators still manage to challenge audiences intellectually, politically, even aesthetically. Metaphor: ReFantazio, probably one of the best Japanese game releases this year is very political, not shying away at all from tackling class, race and even the literal point of this post, media dumbed down to escapism.
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Dalewyn on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:45AM (#42245664)
Maybe you don't realize it, but we're on the same side.

Japanese entertainment isn't In Your Dumb Face about things unlike western entertainment, it respects your intelligence and sheer common sense. You're not being talked down to, your ability to just pick another (better) product to be entertained with and walk away is respected; and it's an escape from the rest of the world shouting at you about something.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by criddell on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @09:05AM (#42245848)
> it respects your intelligence and sheer common sense

I wouldn't make the pedestal too high. There's plenty of very disturbing, low-brow stuff published in Japan.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by oreally on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @09:49AM (#42246243)
For comics, I believe this partially originates from Stan Lee's view of including something relatable from real life in their works of art and media. The problem with that view is that it doesn't really integrate into all forms of media well.

And I don't know if Japanese entertainment would fall over that easy. Media has a way of sticking around in our heads.

Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by evanjrowley on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @10:41AM (#42246695)
I choose not to watch most American-made entertainment because I share this sentiment, however, I'd like to point out that it goes much deeper than that. All media is a construction and projection of a certain viewpoint on reality. Until American entertainment can project a view that is wholesome, I must always consider it to be less valuable than media that does. This is not only for entertainment's sake, but also for the mental health of viewers. We need shows to show people how to be polite and how to behave, not shows that denigrate and debase. We should all put less emphasis on shows that align with political views and more emphasis on shows that align with moral ones.
Re:Surrealism, cafes and lots (and lots) of cats: why Japane... by Dalewyn on Thursday November 28, 2024 @03:30AM (#42263591)
That all my comments here got flagged says a lot about how putrid our society (and the specific subset most of HN's audience hails from) is. Sad, really.