The statistics are still in their favour even at this early stage when the bugs are yet to be fully figured out though. There’s good reason today to feel safer around self driving cars even with the above example.

As self driving becomes more and more commonplace and even safer we’ll likely be focusing more on the 40k human caused fatalities.

Just noting that the bicyclist is fully at fault for trying to jump the queue at a 4 way stop, and it sounds like they were going in a different direction than the turning truck as well. Hard to pin that one on Waymo, though I do feel like Waymo cars tend to drive a bit "city aggressive" at times, like asserting their right of way, sticking close to the car in front, etc.

I don't know what happened in this case, but it's possible that the bicycle stopped at the stop sign before the Waymo did, and then proceeded (behind the truck), entering the intersection before the Waymo. If so, there's nothing wrong with the cyclist's actions.

What I mean is: if the bicycle got to the intersection before the Waymo, then it would have had right of way.

Of course, it's also possible that the cyclist failed to stop at the stop sign.

But neither of us has seen footage of what happened. Presumably Waymo has a recording but, if the cyclist was hidden by the truck, that won't show what happened.

That’s not the law. Vehicles take turns at an intersection - there’s no total queuing order based on arrival time.

At a contended intersection, it should never be the case that two vehicles coming from the same lane take consecutive turns.

  That’s not the law. Vehicles take turns at an intersection - there’s no total queuing order based on arrival time.

No, 'taking turns' is not codified in the law or mentioned in the DMV handbook.

If the Waymo stopped at the intersection after the bicycle stopped at the intersection, or if the Waymo's path was blocked and it was thus not entering the intersection, the bicycle would not be required to yield.

  At a contended intersection, it should never be the case that two vehicles coming from the same lane take consecutive turns.

Are you sure about that? Consider the sequence of events in this hypothetical scenario:

1. The lorry arrives (from the North) first and stops at the stop line.

2. The lorry begins turning at the intersection, and is completely past the stop line but still in the intersection.

3. The bicycle arrives (from the North) and stops at the stop line.

4. The Waymo arrives (from the South) and stops at the stop line.

5. The Waymo waits at the stop line because, if it were to proceed, its path would intersect with the turning lorry's path.

6. The bicycle proceeds into the intersection, following the lorry.

How would the cyclist's actions in this scenario violate something in California Vehicle Code sections 21800 to 21809?

DMV handbook: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/california-driver-handboo...

Law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

If the Waymo could not see the bicycle then them cyclist could not see the Waymo. So at best the fault lies with each party to make visual contact and determine who goes first.

  If the Waymo could not see the bicycle then them cyclist could not see the Waymo.

If the cyclist cannot see the Waymo, then either:

A) There is no Waymo, and the cyclist need not yield, or

B) There is a Waymo, but its path is blocked by turning lorry, and the cyclist need not yield.

So either way the bicycle has priority, no?

B sounds wrong to me. That would mean if you had enough lorries blocking the next one's sight they could all go through at once.

I don't think you're supposed to start moving again until you can see whether a waiting vehicle would intersect your path.

  B sounds wrong to me.

But can you explain your objection in terms of the actual law?

This whole sub thread started because someone claimed the bike must have broken the law. I'm trying to explain why that's not necessarily the case. Most people 'stating the law' are making things up that aren't written in the law.

I am honestly curious to know what I may have misunderstood, but based on the actual law not based on what seems to make sense if we were to design ideal laws.

> No, 'taking turns' is not codified in the law or mentioned in the DMV handbook.

Even if it's not explicitly written, it's a natural consequence that once two opposite cars go, the perpendicular cars were there before the replacements, so they get to go first, and it falls into taking turns.

> Consider the sequence of events in this hypothetical scenario

They meant when vehicles are waiting for each other the entire time, since obviously with nobody waiting multiple vehicles can go the same direction. In your scenario nobody is waiting after step 2.

In my scenario, both the Waymo and the bicycle are simultaneously stopped at their respective stop lines. That counts as 'contended'.

> Just noting that the bicyclist is fully at fault

I disagree. Legislation does not abrogate drivers of all moral responsibility. Quite frankly, if a child jumps out from behind a parked car and you hit them despite following the law to the letter, you share some of the blame. I would argue that in all cases where a driver hits someone, they share some blame, because they chose to drive at a speed beyond their ability to react. It is the driver after all that causes the damage.

Obviously, the only solution is to drive at a much, much slower speed, which at some point becomes impractical, so we don't do this.

> because they chose to drive at a speed beyond their ability to react

That's just not possible to solve in practice. Unless you're moving at an extremely slow pace, there's always the lag of noticing + decision + activation. You can drive 10km/h and if someone walks right in front of you, there may be physically no way for you to prevent a collision.

Sure, slower speeds prevent many accidents, but always sharing the blame is a very bad idea.

You’ll be appalled. Germany has a notion of “Allgemeine Betriebsgefahr” which encapsulates the general danger of operating dangerous machinery. For a car/bike accident, the default minimum damages split is at least 20% for the car, even if the driver has complied with all rules. In the Netherlands, it’s even more strict: accidents between cars and anyone below 14 are automatically considered 100% the drivers fault for damages, unless you can prove that the accident was caused deliberately and maliciously by the child. For accidents with > 14 years olds, it’s still at least 50% automatic damages, unless you can prove reckless or deliberate behavior.

This is intended to reflect the inherent danger of driving a heavy machine in a public space.

> That's just not possible to solve in practice.

It is never a necessity to drive so close to people that 10km/h is too fast to notice someone who may veer into the path of your vehicle without you having the ability to stop. Likewise to drive at a speed at which someone could appear from behind a nearby obstacle leaving you no time to react. It is a convenience that most people assume they are entitled to - largely due to it being codified in law (there are lots of things we do that are like this).

You may consider it to be a necessity, and I would have once too. But I never do this now. I gave up the convenience - something I couldn't have done if it was a necessity.

I understand this is not a choice everyone feels free to make. But it is a choice.

I'm not talking about the cases where you have any choice about what's going to happen or your safety margin. A person jumps from a place fully obstructed by a truck, 1cm in front of your car - it doesn't matter how slow you're going - you're going to hit them before you register what happened.

That is why you don't drive past busses parked at a bus stop. There is always someone late for class or work, running out of the bus, and then across the street behind or in front of the bus. I'm even slowing down if I'm in the opposite lane meeting the bus because this happens so frequently. And the law (here in Sweden) says I should drive no faster than that I can stop on the road surface I can see. And that I have to antissipate people jumping out in front of the car from behind obstacles. Busses are luckily pretty high from the ground so you can see legs sticking out under it, this makes it a bit safer if you remember to look out for them.

You're assuming you've always got the choice to keep the distance. Sometimes you don't. If you get in a tight alley where you have to pass a truck, you can't do it differently. Whatever safety system you use, one day it either won't help in the situation, or you'll forget about it. Overconfidence in your control may give you a really bad lesson in humility.

You can also see the recent video of a Tesla avoiding a person falling onto the street and crashing into another car. There's no reason to keep the speed lower in that area, no extra source to be away from the sidewalk and no time to react to the change.

In the UK the highway code was changed recently and pedestrians then cyclists have highest priority in all circumstances.

> Legislation does not abrogate drivers of all moral responsibility. Quite frankly, if a child jumps out from behind a parked car and you hit them despite following the law to the letter, you share some of the blame.

There is a legal doctrine in the US called the 'last clear chance'. Even if the other person was breaking the law, you still have the responsibility to avoid an accident if you can.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/last_clear_chance

4 way stops are such insane traffic flow devices. Love the comedy, Larry David vibes but c’mon America.

Believe it or not, it's not allowed to drive in a manner which kills other road users breaking the rules of the road.

If not, I would be well within my rights to push speeding drivers (the vast majority in my experience) off the road when I drive, and I'm for very obvious reasons not allowed to do that.

That was nine months ago. How many human drivers in SF do you wager have struck a cyclist since? It’s easily in the hundreds.

Self driving cars do not eliminate risk to pedestrians or cyclists but they reduce it by multiple orders of magnitude, and they are trending in the right direction, whereas human drivers seem to be trending in the wrong one.