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Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by tptacek on Thursday July 05, 2012 @11:40AM (#4203492)
Do we still need to point things like this out? Who here thought Linux didn't play a major role at CERN? Linux is the norm in large data center applications. What percentage of US commodities and securities transactions are touched by Linux? My guess is "most".
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by Cushman on Thursday July 05, 2012 @11:56AM (#4203560)
There are interesting facets to it, I think. What would they be using if Linux didn't exist? How much longer would it have taken if they'd had to use BSD? Or Windows?

How many of those millions of man-hours contributed to this discovery? How many other major breakthroughs have they enabled? How much amazing potential is locked up in proprietary software, utterly useless?

A major discovery like this is a perfect chance to blow the horn for publicly-funded research, and open source software is a huge part of that.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by mechanical_fish on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:55PM (#4203794)
How much longer would it have taken if they'd had to use BSD?

No longer, because software was not the bottleneck.

The hard part about finding a Higgs boson is designing the gigantic particle accelerator and the detectors, then getting the funding to build them, then building them, then running them for N hours and analyzing the data. These things took decades. They started in the 1980s, years before Linux.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by Cushman on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:09PM (#4203868)
I'd contend that manpower is the bottleneck, and time spent writing and debugging software is time taken away from designing and performing experiments. How much time, exactly, depends on the precise software.

I'm not saying it's on the scale of years, but that's what I'm opening up for discussion. It's certainly plausible, given the sheer scale of work that's gone into the development of Linux, that there may be features that researchers would have had to recreate at great effort and expense had Linux not existed.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by flatline3 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:34PM (#4203976)
You're opening it up for discussion with the implication that somehow Linux provides superior tools. However, despite the strong implication, you're unsure of what those could actually be.

This is a leading line of discourse -- you're strongly implying that Linux permitted more rapid development, but you don't appear to have any supportable justification for why that would be the case.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by Cushman on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:53PM (#4204070)
You wound me, sir.

It has been noted by others (in the article, for example) that Linux is the undisputed king of high-performance computing, in the public sector at least. My only assumption is that that is not random, that there are reasons for it.

I'm not trying to lead the discourse anywhere -- I'm certainly not a Linux fanatic, if that's what you're implying. I just think it's utterly plausible that Linux, and the open source community in general, saved these people a whole bunch of time.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by jiggy2011 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @04:17PM (#4204759)
I would imagine having an Open Source kernel is an advantage for very niche applications like this because you can add/change features that would be useless or detrimental to 99.9999% of users but would be useful in this instance.

I have no idea whether that was part of the reasoning for this or not though.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by flatline3 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @02:36PM (#4204293)
> My only assumption is that that is not random, that there are reasons for it.

It's complicated, more so than can be adequately addressed here, and far beyond a simple question of Linux specifically "saving [people] a whole bunch of time".

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by excuse-me on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:26PM (#4203934)
Haven't kept up but 20years ago when I shared a building with these guys the computers were the bottle neck.

The original design for ATLAS had a sampling system where only random blocks of data could be analysed just because the computers (and buses and memory) couldn't keep up - so the data analysis became a sort of monte-carlo process as well. And this was in spite of huge and very impressive arrays of custom FPGAs and Transputers (in the 90s).

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by mechanical_fish on Thursday July 05, 2012 @02:44PM (#4204331)
computers were the bottleneck

Perhaps, but we were discussing software. Specifically, "Linux" vs "some other operating system".

I agree that advances in computing must surely have a lot to do with the discovery of the Higgs, but such advances are about hardware, not operating systems. Since the 1990s, billions of dollars, both public and private, have been spent to keep Moore's Law rolling forward, and that's most of what makes modern computers more capable.

Anyway, it occurs to me that this discussion is a classic bikeshed. Rather than debate tricky and obscure issues like the quantum mechanics behind the Higgs phenomenon, the engineering of supercolliders, the politics of getting supercolliders funded, the ins and outs of data processing algorithms at CERN, or the techniques of manufacturing transistors with a 20nm gate size, we have fallen back to debating whether or not the license used for the operating system was vitally important.

If CERN had had to implement a Unix entirely from scratch in order to do their job, they would have done so. It would have been a minor side issue. Indeed, from a certain point of view, that may be exactly what they did. Why discuss how Linux was vital for CERN's scientists, but not the other way around? Perhaps the reason why Linux was so good for high-energy physics is that high-energy physicists built it that way?

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by jessedhillon on Friday July 06, 2012 @02:35AM (#4206634)
Read the Wikipedia page on the Compact Muon Solenoid. There were some significant computational challenges involved, including how to (pre)process and store terabytes of data per second. These are challenges that push the envelope at every layer of computing, from hardware to the OS and application levels. It's not an informed proposition to say that the OS was some replaceable commodity with an unimportant role -- that's like saying Linux is unimportant at Google or Amazon. The ability to tune the kernel wad definitely crucial.

I would also question whether 20+ years of devlopment on a private UNIX clone would have produced a better result than Linux. There are plenty of private UNIXes but sarcely a convincing argument that a single one is better than Linux in some meaningful way.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by excuse-me on Thursday July 05, 2012 @06:25PM (#4205306)
Personally (my PhD is in experimental physics) the interesting bit is all the vacuum pumps, magnet control, beam dumps, control systems as well as the detectors.

Whether some semi-imaginary particle fits the parameters of some semi-imaginary theory is pretty uninteresting ;-)

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by Natsu on Thursday July 05, 2012 @08:21PM (#4205740)
> Whether some semi-imaginary particle fits the parameters of some semi-imaginary theory is pretty uninteresting ;-)

I think they prefer it if we call such things "complex" rather than "semi-imaginary" ;-)

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by lloeki on Friday July 06, 2012 @07:50AM (#4207341)
> complex

I found that once you get past the technicalities and when you get back to a bird's eye view, interactions among elementary particles follow almost naturally and looks deceptively simple [0], and the postulate of the Higgs boson existence seems like one† of the obvious solutions explaining mass.

Now when you get back down in the trenches and have to properly define it theoretically I'm positively convinced it is another matter entirely in terms of complexity.

† Then again, we previously tried to explain how light could be propagating through a postulated medium called luminiferous aether. Hopefully it looks like the LHC experiments are not going the way aether experiments did.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model#Gauge_bosons

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by albertzeyer on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:09PM (#4203597)
I'm curious: For the applications at CERN, would BSD really make much difference to Linux?
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by obtu on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:35PM (#4203704)
It would be harder maintaining a large collection of software outside of one of the major Linux distros. Debian/kFreeBSD might have a chance thanks to the GNU userland, but the archive is less well supported than with the Linux kernel.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by ryanjkirk on Friday July 06, 2012 @09:30PM (#4210386)
Quite the opposite. This isn't about the userland, it's about the kernel. The linux kernel is where the high-performance cluster computing advances have been. The GNU userland is just a clone of the BSD userland, nothing special there. Moreover, FreeBSD and OpenBSD's packages are diverse, well-maintained, and current. But neither OS's userland nor any of their packaging systems have anything to do with high-performance cluster computing.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by flatline3 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:32PM (#4203965)
Why do you say that?
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by lumberjack on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:43PM (#4203742)
I may be wrong but they probably have a support contract with RHEL or similiar or they are using a sponsored distribution that caters to their specific needs such as Scientific Linux. I don't know if similiar projects/teams exist for BSD distros.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by dfc on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:55PM (#4203797)
I doubt CERN has a formal run of the mill support contract with RH like other large organizations. Scientific Linux is developed (in-house) in partnership with Fermilab.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Linux

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by dchest on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:16PM (#4203901)
They use RHEL too: http://linux.web.cern.ch/linux/rhel/

For offical usage in the context of Oracle production databases and eventually other applications requiring commercial support there is a limited number of Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6 Server, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 Server licenses available at CERN. For all other tasks standard CERN Linux distribution: Scientific Linux CERN shall be used.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by srl on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:57PM (#4203809)
IIRC, scientific linux is maintained by CERN itself.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by sp332 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @02:05PM (#4204135)
BSD kernels generally do not have such good support for hard real time applications. It's been done though, so I don't know if it would have a real impact.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by Mvandenbergh on Thursday July 05, 2012 @03:23PM (#4204533)
No need for hard real time, first level detector output goes through FPGAs which only pass potentially interesting data to the Linux powered systems which do further data filtering.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by boop on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:12PM (#4203876)
> How much longer would it have taken if they'd had to use BSD?

Macs (BSD-based) are popular at CERN as well:

Smashing Research at CERN http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/briancox/index2.html

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by guelo on Thursday July 05, 2012 @02:22PM (#4204225)
> What would they be using if Linux didn't exist?

Probably Solaris.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by ryanjkirk on Friday July 06, 2012 @09:33PM (#4210394)
Doubtful. Seeing as they maintain their own Linux distribution, they would probably be maintaining their own BSD flavor instead.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by superuser2 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @08:20PM (#4205736)
> utterly useless

Proprietary software can be pretty useful to people who find it worth paying for.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by jolohaga on Thursday July 05, 2012 @08:23PM (#4205748)
BSD and Windows don't even belong in the same sentence. Where did you get the idea BSD is like Windows?
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by xrt on Friday July 06, 2012 @01:05AM (#4206380)
The network stack? Well, I guess that's been removed, but it took a while...
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by indrax on Thursday July 05, 2012 @04:20PM (#4204775)
What would Linux be good for if Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent the Web to make CERN more effective?
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by gaius on Friday July 06, 2012 @10:25AM (#4207833)
If TBL is representative, CERN would be running on NeXTStep if it still existed, or FreeBSD as the next best thing.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by dfc on Thursday July 05, 2012 @11:58AM (#4203570)
I also think we need less stories that linux played a major/significant role in X, but for different reasons. I think we need fewer "tool y played a major role in my success" stories. The tool fetish is distracting.

The scientist in the linked story comes out and says that he is not sure about the differences between BSD and linux and that windows could have filled the gap in principle.

Tools are tools. Whether its a hammer or a Scientific Linux Cluster the significant factor is the user, the carpenter or the physicist. The search for the theory of everything is not a logistics/supply-chain-management problem it is a question of physics.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by epistasis on Thursday July 05, 2012 @02:03PM (#4204128)
The ability to use Windows in principle was likened to being able to also use a raw Turing machine; i.e. that it could have worked but would have been completely inappropriate.

I think that Unix-alikes are going to dominate any sort of high-performance computing; and I think it's more than just the network effects of the current user base. The scriptability and composability that permeates Unix-alikes is essential for automating tasks across thousands of nodes. That's not to say that it's impossible in Windows, but it's not as much in Windows' culture. Being able to ssh to any node, occasionally draw graphics remotely, all these things are hugely important. The main advantage of Windows, point-and-click administration and lots of existing software, are not advantages when you can't point-and-click thousands of machines and you have to write all your software anyway.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by frankc on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:36PM (#4203709)
Not so sure I agree with that in general. What about the LHC? That is just a tool, too. Is that too not worth mentioning?
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by dfc on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:49PM (#4203774)
I did not say that tools are never noteworthy. They are important but they are also a means to an end. The LHC is hardly an average run of the mill tool; it is rather exceptionary. So I'm not sure why you think it applies "in the general case."
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by frankc on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:58PM (#4203819)
Well, because you claimed pretty strongly this:

"Tools are tools. Whether its a hammer or a Scientific Linux Cluster the significant factor is the user, the carpenter or the physicist"

I agree with you that tools are a means to an end and that obviously the LHC is a lot more important that the choice of OS. I just think you were a bit too dismissive of tools in your post, though perhaps that wasn't your intent. If someone is going to rah-rah a tool, in this case Linux, they should be pointing out what role it played and what about its use was essential, not just that it was used.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by callan on Thursday July 05, 2012 @03:08PM (#4204461)
I see this more as a "team builder"; a reminder why we are involved in our software communities. It's great to take a moment every once in a while (especially something historic like this) and give ourselves or others some recognition.

Savvy managers and organizations know when to give praise-- they key thing is not to trivialize it. This seems appropriate to me.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by sheff on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:11PM (#4203873)
Completely agree with this. If you look at some of the CERN infrastructure pages, you see they use both open source and commercial apps wherever they make sense. For example when I checked out the DB infrastructure a while ago, they seemed to use a lot of Oracle[1] (with some MySQL in there as well), Scientific Linux for some stuff and RHEL where needed ( presumably for support reasons).

[1] https://openlab-mu-internal.web.cern.ch/openlab-mu-internal/...

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by rbanffy on Thursday July 05, 2012 @08:02PM (#4205651)
Just to point out open-source does not equate to non-commercial. Even if all you do is to report bugs, barter is a valid form of commerce and you are exchanging time for a better product. Also, Oracle Linux and RHEL, despite being paid for, are open-source. Scientific Linux is compiled from Red Hat's sources (as is Oracle's, mostly)
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by sargun on Thursday July 05, 2012 @01:07PM (#4203862)
Even some MSFT divisions openly admit to using Linux in-house. So, I'm pretty sure s/most/all/.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by kyberias on Thursday July 05, 2012 @02:40PM (#4204315)
Hah, care to provide some references for this statement?
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by eru on Thursday July 05, 2012 @05:23PM (#4205036)
At least Microsoft Research in Cambridge is using Linux, and have admitted though. They develop ghc, the most prominent Haskell compiler, there.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by kyberias on Monday July 16, 2012 @06:07PM (#4252936)
That's kinda lame reference since MRC is pretty isolated from the corporation to do science.
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by vl on Thursday July 05, 2012 @06:30PM (#4205323)
Higgs Boson Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs Boson'.

Scientists working at CERN, Geneva have announced the discovery of Higgs Boson which is considered to be one of the most important scientific feats in understanding the creation of Universe. It is called 'God particle' because it plays central role in discovering itself.

Scientists from CERN just posted on Reddit their thanks to Higgs Boson:

I don't see any CERN related things here, so I want to mention how Higgs Boson (specifically, lower energy one - the only one currently discoverd) had a vital role in the discovery of itself at CERN. We rely on it every day in our analyses to enable particles in atoms of our brains and computers to gather mass. Without it this discovery would truly be impossible. Thank you, Higgs Boson!

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by zyb09 on Friday July 06, 2012 @12:50AM (#4206356)
Yeah, the news kinda comes down to: "CERN data centers run Linux", which is cool, considering the work that is done there, but not really that surprising at all ;)
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by pjmlp on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:57PM (#4203813)
Sadly when I did my trainship there in the ATLAS group (2003-2004), many researchers were moving to Windows as their desktop environment.

I still remember the discussions between still writing papers in LaTEX or move to FrameMaker on Windows.

Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by pjmlp on Saturday July 07, 2012 @02:25AM (#4210912)
So one tells the truth about what the reality is at CERN and gets down voted, great!
Re:Linux Played a Crucial Role in Discovery of 'Higgs boson' by jackhammer2022 on Thursday July 05, 2012 @12:39PM (#4203720)
Yep right if these were the 90's,the heading would have been worth its pounds and it was made a cliche in the 90's itself.