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Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by londons_explore on Sunday October 06, 2024 @03:01PM (#41759287)
I just want speed to degrade gracefully down to 1 kbps or even 100bps. Ie I should be able to be 1 mile from my house, but still be imessaging over my home wifi.

Physics lets me do that with no additional transmit power (shannon's channel capacity formula, combined with signal power dropping off as a function of distance squared).

If suitable modulation was chosen (ie. some kind of CDMA), then a setup which can give 100 Mbit at 100 yards should be able to do 322 kbits at 1 mile, and 3kbps at 10 miles!

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by abracadaniel on Sunday October 06, 2024 @03:20PM (#41759468)
That’s my dream network. A long range, low bandwidth, decentralized network. Mesh would be cool, but even just being able to exchange with neighbors at the scale of 1-10mi would be amazing.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by franek on Sunday October 06, 2024 @03:48PM (#41759707)
This sounds like what RNode devices for Reticulum networks appear to be able to do. (I haven't tried it for myself yet.)

> RNodes can be made in many different configurations, and can use many different radio bands, but they will generally operate in the 433 MHz, 868 MHz, 915 MHZ and 2.4 GHz bands. They will usually offer configurable on-air data speeds between just a few hundred bits per second, up to a couple of megabits per second.

> [...]

> While speeds are lower than WiFi, typical communication ranges are many times higher. Several kilometers can be acheived with usable bitrates, even in urban areas, and over 100 kilometers can be achieved in line-of-sight conditions.

( https://unsigned.io/rnode/ )

> Reticulum is the cryptography-based networking stack for building local and wide-area networks with readily available hardware. Reticulum can continue to operate even in adverse conditions with very high latency and extremely low bandwidth.

( https://reticulum.network/ )

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by abracadaniel on Monday October 07, 2024 @12:41AM (#41762869)
That does look fascinating. I hadn’t seen this yet, thank you.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by sneak on Sunday October 06, 2024 @03:23PM (#41759498)
It would be illegal (at least in the usa); you’re not allowed to share your home internet, or function as a public utility.

There are huge regulatory moats around everything that costs $20-500/mo recurring and is incurred by large percentages of the population. Internet access is a huge one.

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by johnnyanmac on Sunday October 06, 2024 @03:29PM (#41759550)
Well that would explain the sad estate of government sanctioned Wifi. They were bought out, as usual, from people who just want an extra buck instead of properly serving the public's needs.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by wilted-iris on Sunday October 06, 2024 @03:35PM (#41759608)
Citation? There are a few large public meshes in the US. I'm unaware of anything that makes them illegal to run.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by BenjiWiebe on Monday October 07, 2024 @02:07PM (#41769026)
I know it's usually against the ToS to share your home WiFi, but this is the first I've ever heard that it's illegal.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by eternityforest on Monday October 07, 2024 @02:52PM (#41769554)
Meshtastic works fine for that, it just doesn't scale beyond tiny text messages
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by altairprime on Sunday October 06, 2024 @06:28PM (#41760888)
WiFi 7 finally extends wi-fi clients to be capable of bonding multiple radios together into a coherent link. This is critical to being able to bond in longer-range, lower-bandwidth channels in the future, and I'm certain they are considering how they can bring all of the 802.11 wireless specifications under one umbrella.

However, this will also expose issues with encapsulation of "the connection", which can now vary exponentially in capacity. Operating systems and applications are coded to be 'carrier frequency agnostic', without any capability for a given connection to switch from "low data mode" (avoid unnecessary transmissions) to "high data mode" (do whatever you like), much less to "extremely low data mode" (i.e. push notifications and foreground app only) or to "extremely high data mode" (i.e. 4k / 240fps over 60GHz); all on a single dynamically-adjusting connection.

Cellular fakes this today by saying "5G high data permitted?" but not being able to downgrade OS and app behaviors gracefully when the 5G connection is hella weak or overloaded, i.e. not fetching mail or not autoplaying movies or etc.

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by DaiPlusPlus on Sunday October 06, 2024 @09:24PM (#41761887)
Windows exposes connection-speed data to applications, and don’t forget the “metered connection” setting - which plenty (albeit probably not most) applications support - which goes a long way to solve the problem you’re describing.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by hinkley on Sunday October 06, 2024 @08:19PM (#41761571)
The problem with that is you end up time division multiplexing. Packets for the distant client take as many microseconds to transmit as the high bandwidth nearby clients. The aggregate bandwidth for the system craters with more remote clients.
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by crazygringo on Sunday October 06, 2024 @11:46PM (#41762603)
How would you handle interference with many thousands of other WiFi routers within the 10 mile radius, operating on the same frequencies?
Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by londons_explore on Monday October 07, 2024 @02:46AM (#41763389)
CDMA keying.

You have to be close to a router the first time to connect to it.

And after that you both have some long (ie. 65536 bit) random key which is used as a modulation code for your transmissions.

The receiver demodulates with the key to get the data out. Different key can get different data out of the same airwaves at the same time.

Clock's need to be synced perfectly, which is in itself a big technical challenge.

As the article slides to, low power signal reception is also challenging.

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by 05 on Monday October 07, 2024 @07:55AM (#41765100)
iMessage works over TCP, you're just going to be stuck in endless reconnect/retransmission loop.

> a setup which can give 100 Mbit at 100 yards should be able to do 322 kbits at 1 mile, and 3kbps at 10 miles!

That's not how noise floor works

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by eternityforest on Monday October 07, 2024 @02:50PM (#41769539)
Is that really true in practice though? Unless you're in the true middle of nowhere, by the time you get a mile out, there's going to be other people using the spectrum, and at low bandwidth they'll be using it for a long time.

Current stuff like LoRa works because there's not many users and the protocols are optimized, but if everyone was iMessaging we'd probably need more spectrum.

We can already do WiFi for miles with narrow beam antennas, we could make mesh network tech cheap if it was standardized and mass produced.

Re:Wi-Fi Goes Long Range on New WiLo Standard by adrian_b on Tuesday October 08, 2024 @09:36AM (#41777228)
The oldest WiFi standards, at 1 Mb/s or 2 Mb/s, could easily establish point-to-point links at 50 km or even 100 km, with the condition of using good directive antennas mounted on high-enough masts.

This could be used to implement bridges between LANs located at great distances one from the other. There were commercial products implementing such LAN bridges through WiFi.

When an access point must transmit and receive omni-directionally, to reach any station placed randomly around it, that diminishes a lot the achievable range.