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Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by boodleboodle on Thursday October 03, 2024 @08:29PM (#41736564)
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced developers will be the "first to go" when AGI takes over. Before bloggers and youtubers. Because programming is an activity that requires the least amount of "grounding to reality" among all human activities. We made sure of this with layers and layers of convenient abstraction.

What about developers that code the AI systems? Well.. I am sure AGI will come from other "bootsrapping AIs" just like we see with compilers that compile themselves. When I see Altman and Sutskever talking about AGI being within reach, I feel they are talking about this bootstrapping AI being within reach.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by emmanueloga_ on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:08PM (#41737414)
Mechanical Turks will be the first to go.

More seriously, the output quality of LLMs for code is pretty inconsistent. I think there's an analogy to be made with literature. For instance, a short story generated by an LLM can't really hold a candle to the work of a human author.

LLM-generated code can be a good starting point for avoiding tedious aspects of software development, like boilerplate or repetitive tasks. When it works, it saves a lot of time. For example, if I need to generate a bunch of similar functions, an LLM can sometimes act like an ad-hoc code generator, helping to skip the manual labor. I’ve also gotten some helpful suggestions on code style, though mostly for small snippets. It’s especially useful for refreshing things you already know—like quickly recalling "How do I do this with TypeScript?" without needing to search for documentation.

Anyway, literature writers and software engineers aren't going to be replaced anytime soon.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by razodactyl on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:43PM (#41737594)
Yes, but don't dismiss the laws of scaling and the inability of ourselves to predict the future. Wait But Why did a great take on the AI leap.

Imagine that current AI is already curating and generating datasets for the next generation.

Also consider that what we have now is only possible because hardware capability increased.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by satvikpendem on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:46PM (#41737612)
Isn't scaling already a big problem in generative AI? Apparently there is not enough data to actually appreciably increase the quality of outputs, and lots of data is also being polluted by AI generations. This is why these companies are now shifting to more ancillary features like in this article (which Claude already has to some extent, as well as Copilot in VSCode and other editors).
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by NitpickLawyer on Friday October 04, 2024 @02:44AM (#41738479)
> Apparently there is not enough data

This was pretty much refuted by Meta with their LLama3 release. Two key points I got from a podcast with the lead data person, right after release:

a) Internet data is generally shit anyway. Previous generations of models are used to sift through, classify and clean up the data

b) post-processing (aka finetuning) uses mostly synthetic datasets. Reward models based on human annotators from previous runs were already outperforming said human annotators, so they just went with it.

This also invalidates a lot of the early "model collapse" findings when feeding the model's output to itself. It seems that many of the initial papers were either wrong, used toy models, or otherwise didn't use the proper techniques to avoid model collapse (or, perhaps they wanted to reach it...)

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by Bloedcoins on Friday October 04, 2024 @07:35AM (#41740311)
We got a jump start with 'a ton of data' and discovering now that less but better data is actually better.

So yes we will see manual labor to finetune the data lair but this will only be necessary for a certain amount of time. And in parallel we also help by just using it: With the feedback we give these systems.

A feedback loop mechanism is fundamental part of AI ecosystems.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by visarga on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:33PM (#41737535)
> Mechanical Turks will be the first to go.

On the contrary, human annotation work is stepping up now because we create so many more prompts and want to test them.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by Hard_Space on Friday October 04, 2024 @02:25AM (#41738402)
Human studies participants have a safer job than firemen. The trouble is that it is already woefully underpaid, and unsettled industries will increase supply.

There are crucial quality issues with Mechanical Turk, though, and when these really start damaging AI in obvious ways, the system (and the compensation, vetting procedures and oversight) seems likely to change.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by torginus on Friday October 04, 2024 @03:26AM (#41738753)
Those jobs are already outsourced if possible (remember RLHF for ChatGPT outsourced to Kenya, Facebook content moderation to India?) And if they aren't, that's usually for regulatory reasons.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by kovezd on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:21PM (#41736876)
That thinking is driven by limited product imagination.

The kind of apps that will be built in the next 5 years,are nowhere near what we have today.

Developers will need to update their skillset, though.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by visarga on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:34PM (#41737545)
It's not a fixed lump of work. Widening the road makes the traffic increase, not congestion decrease. Same with coding, if we could do more, we would.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by dboreham on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:13PM (#41736819)
Sticking to my prediction that lawyers will be first.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by ajmurmann on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:16PM (#41737452)
That's an interesting example. Lawyers, unlike software developers, as a group go out of their way to ensure that they'll need need and cannot be replaced by others or automation. They push for certain processes to require lawyers. We on the other hand are more eager to automate ourselves than anything else. Maybe that will boost or productivity and make us even more valuable and highly paid or maybe we'll end up unemployed. Fascinating contrast between the professions
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by choilive on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:25PM (#41736901)
Lawyers have a tricky thing called a license to practice law. Software developers have no such protection.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by kylecazar on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:47PM (#41737023)
Robots are already successfully performing surgeries unassisted, despite a license being required in that field.

I do think barred lawyers will have a role for quite a while, but it is plausible it shrinks to oversight.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by gugagore on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:17PM (#41737173)
What robot is performing what surgery unassisted?
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by filoleg on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:20PM (#41737477)
Yeah, plus one on this one, extremely curious to hear as well.

I am aware that remote robot surgeries have been a thing for quite a bit of time, but this is the first time ever I am hearing about unassisted robot surgeries being a thing at all.

A follow-up question: if an unassisted robot surgery goes wrong, who is liable? I know we have a similar dilemma with self-driving cars, but I was under the impression that things are way more regulated and strict in the realm of healthcare.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by forgotoldacc on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:33PM (#41737244)
Programmers have been against unions/licenses in software development because we saw it as slowing down our ability to job hop, potentially massively lowering wages, and making a large barrier to entry (which hurts a lot of us who started as kids/teens).

Now there's a chance that this unregulated wild west with a low barrier to entry that's benefited us for so long will come back to bite us in the ass. Kind of spooky to think about.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by jdiez17 on Friday October 04, 2024 @02:06AM (#41738315)
I would be in favor of some kind of state approved exam/certification to ensure programmers have at least some basic knowledge of computer security and engineering ethics.

> making a large barrier to entry (which hurts a lot of us who started as kids/teens)

I doubt it. In my experience autodidacts are the best programmers I know.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by hakanderyal on Friday October 04, 2024 @08:00AM (#41740503)
The problem is they would most certainly require a CS degree to apply (if it's left to the bureaucrats), which would be the barrier.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by kristopolous on Friday October 04, 2024 @03:50AM (#41738875)
I don't know if that's true. If I was in a WGA/DGA equivalent in my field that offered health care and scale pay that would be great!

I bet if you asked most programmers whether they'd like to have a professional guild similar to the writers who just went on strike, you'd probably be surprised, especially for gaming devs.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by lttlrck on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:42PM (#41736994)
Defending yourself might become a whole lot easier.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by bumby on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:19PM (#41737185)
>Software developers have no such protection.

I wonder if this is at all related to NCEES re-releasing their controls licensure option?

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by jonahx on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:48PM (#41737630)
This fundamentally misunderstands what lawyers do. You're prediction might be right for paralegals and very junior attorneys. But the lawyers who make real money are not doing rote work. It's lunches, negotiation, politics, and for trial attorneys performance and debate. Social activities, human skills. They'll always be around.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by dboreham on Friday October 04, 2024 @10:40AM (#41741913)
s/lawyers/software-developers/
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by frankdenbow on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:48PM (#41737032)
Agree with that, the startup lawyer I used to use now charges $1,100 / hour which is untenable, would much rather get the basics covered by an AI lawyer.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by jahewson on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:42PM (#41737591)
Nah, the stakes are too high.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by mekoka on Thursday October 03, 2024 @11:02PM (#41737386)
Live counsel in sensitive situations is definitely in the works, if not already in beta. Get pulled over by cops, or have the authorities asking to enter the premises, bring up your AI counsel and let them talk to the officer, before giving you advice on how to proceed. I can even envision an eventual future where public pressure results in law enforcement being paired with an AI assistant to help refresh their memory on some of the articles of the law.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by vlunkr on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:48PM (#41737031)
There’s a company being fined for exactly this right now. That might be a deterrent.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by jdiez17 on Friday October 04, 2024 @02:02AM (#41738299)
FWIW I used various LLMs to draft a freelance work contract with good results. Of course I carefully read, thought about every clause, edited, etc. It’s probably not as bulletproof as something a lawyer could produce, but it was definitely a big help.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by b212 on Thursday October 03, 2024 @08:33PM (#41736586)
With AGI you won’t need most of the human race anymore, developers are just the tip of the iceberg.

Luckily ChatGPT and the rest have nothing to do with an AI not to mention AGI.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by sitkack on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:14PM (#41737164)
We didn't need humans in the first place. The collective "we" can decide that we want to do anything. People have this crazy fatalistic attitude about AI taking over, billionaries ejecting to Mars and humans becoming irrelevant. Let me tell you, humans have been irrelevant since forever.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by maxwell on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:11PM (#41737153)
Won't need most of humanity wasting time gatekeeping and toiling, to instead focus on study and leisure.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by rayval on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:29PM (#41737230)
That would be nice, to gambol in a lush, sunny meadow, perusing a leather-bound volume that we read in the original Greek or Sanskrit.

Unfortunately, I fear we will instead end up sweaty and dirty and bloodied, grappling in the parched terrain, trying to bash members of a neighboring clan with rocks and wooden clubs, while a skyline of crumbling skyscrapers looms in the distance.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by bbu on Friday October 04, 2024 @12:46AM (#41737898)
Increased productivity has to more, not less toiling in the last 50 or so years. This is not gonna be different with AGI (if it ever happens). Some people will get very rich while the rest is still gonna work just as much as they are now. The jobs just gonna suck even more.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by Jeff_Brown on Thursday October 03, 2024 @08:54PM (#41736724)
It's not AGI yet but has everything to do with it.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by lttlrck on Thursday October 03, 2024 @09:45PM (#41737006)
Hmmm. I'm going to withhold judgement until we get AGI. It might have about as much to do with it as the invention of the wheel and the lunar buggy.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by maxwell on Thursday October 03, 2024 @10:12PM (#41737156)
How will you know when it's sufficiently general?
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by juthen on Friday October 04, 2024 @02:39AM (#41738459)
Maintenance and long-term development will still require grounding to reality. A super-CEO might build the app themself, but keeping it running 5, 10, 20 years is a completely different deal. I imagine developers will eventually start to act more like librarians, knowing their system very well but not necessarily in charge of making new content.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by bamboozled on Friday October 04, 2024 @02:39AM (#41738461)
No one has a job when AGI "takes over"? Weird take.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by torginus on Friday October 04, 2024 @03:31AM (#41738782)
I think there's a lot of evidence out there that supports your theory.

- There's the biggest/most high quality training corpus that captures all aspects of dev work (code, changes, discussions about issues, etc.) out there with open source hosting sites like GitHub

- Synthetic data is easy to generate and verify, you can just run unit tests/debugger in a loop until you get it right. Try doing that with contracts or tax statements.

- Little to no regulatory protections.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by raincole on Friday October 04, 2024 @03:50AM (#41738882)
When AGI comes, who are the first to go is solely decided by regulation. Nothing else.
Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by kristopolous on Friday October 04, 2024 @03:52AM (#41738895)
It's the same thing that happened with mechanical looms. Programming will go from an artisan craft to the sweatshops and software programming will become low paying precarious gig work.

This is all about labor and capital. When people toss hundreds of billions at something it almost always is.

The social relationship doesn't have to be this way. Technological improvement could help us instead of screw us over. But we'd first have to admit that profit exploitation isn't absolutely the best thing ever and we'll never do that. Soooo here we are.

Re:Canvas is a new way to write and code with ChatGPT by probably_wrong on Friday October 04, 2024 @05:01AM (#41739330)
> Because programming is an activity that requires the least amount of "grounding to reality" among all human activities.

Maybe once you're deep into APIs that talk to other APIs, but near the surface where the data is collected there's nothing but "grounding to reality".

As my professor of Software Engineering put it: when building a system for counting the number of people inside a room most people would put a turnstile and count the turns. Does this fulfill the requirement? No - people can turn the wheel multiple times, leave through a window, give birth inside the room, etc. Is it good enough? Only your client can say, and only after considering factors like "available technology" and "budget" that have nothing to do with software.