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Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @11:24AM (#41709636)
You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum.

Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by moi2388 on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @11:33AM (#41709768)
Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt.

I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by rightbyte on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @11:52AM (#41710029)
Mummies are maybe a bad example, as one could argue, that bodies should be by their grave.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by bell-cot on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @12:28PM (#41710625)
Or a perfect example - because there are extremely few cultures and circumstances in which very old human graves are moved when the government or rulers changed?
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by nickff on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @02:26PM (#41712221)
Graves generally aren't permanent; most plots are leased for a fixed term. What is done with the caskets and contents thereafter varies widely.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by cuteboy19 on Wednesday October 02, 2024 @02:28AM (#41717753)
Is that really how pyramids worked? King Tut in the pyramid for 60 years then to the Nile his bones?
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by bloak on Wednesday October 02, 2024 @11:31AM (#41721658)
It sort of worked like that, though that wasn't the intention? By which I mean, as I understand it, all the pyramids were robbed a very long time ago, but Tutankhamun's tomb survived undisturbed until the 20th century because it wasn't in a pyramid.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by eadmund on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @09:12PM (#41716245)
And in fact modern Egyptians are more Arabs — the Copts are closer to, but still very far from, the ancient Egyptians.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by Log_out_ on Wednesday October 02, 2024 @01:40AM (#41717520)
Therein lies the crux. In all these srories imperialism is a western power only thing. Meanwhile the region is constantly going back and forth in several imperialist waves. There is still imperialism active in dafur.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by umvi on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @11:30AM (#41709727)
Yeah but it gets absurd if enough time passes.

"Your ancestors wronged my ancestors 1000 years ago, so now modern you owes modern me"

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by soco on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @11:35AM (#41709788)
Yes, and repay it by giving back said object. Egypt or those countries didn't ask for rent or back payments so let's stop imagining strawmen.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by TeaBrain on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @12:06PM (#41710256)
Repay what? The people of modern Egypt have no connection or inheritance claim to the ancient artifacts, other than their having been created in a similar place where the modern Egyptians are currently living. They don't even share a remotely similar culture. The same is true of many other places that had their artifacts collected, in that the people have no legal claim to the artifacts other than their having existed in a place in time nor do they often have any shared culture with the people who created the artifacts.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by satvikpendem on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @12:14PM (#41710392)
Indeed, it is even arguable whether they are even genetically similar to the ancient Egyptians, due to the migration of the Arabs from the peninsula when spreading Islam over time.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by TeaBrain on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @10:47PM (#41716706)
From what I've read, the Egyptian genetics are still relatively similar to Egyptians from several thousand years ago, due to the relatively small number of Arabs involved in the Arab conquest of Egypt. However, the only kinds of inheritance that I believe are strong are familial or cultural. I don't believe in broad umbrella genetic inheritance claims without any establishable familial connection. Beyond this, I think the idea of geographic artifact ownership claims, based solely on the geographic origin of artifacts, have little to no merit.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by aguaviva on Wednesday October 02, 2024 @02:27PM (#41723625)
Beyond this, I think the idea of geographic artifact ownership claims, based solely on the geographic origin of artifacts, have little to no merit.

That's fine, but the world disagrees with you, by and large.

And it needs to have some way of adjudicating these claims. Granted, fine-grained aspects of "familial" vs. "genetic" inheritance (throwing in migrations and multiple waves of forced assimilation) might muddy the waters a bit.

But the vastly bigger point is -- to a first-order approximation, the criterion of "proximate geographic origin" provides at least some form of an objective basis of ownership, and a reasonably workable and intuitive one at that. Meanwhile, as of the 21st century, the consensus view is that the ownership "claims" of recent colonial powers who extracted these artifacts coercively have no merit or basis whatsoever.

Per what the world at large seems to think about these matters. You can disagree of course, and go stand in front of your local museum and hold up a sign stating so, if you like.

(And nevermind the "solely" part please. Yes, there are corner cases like Anatolia where one group comes in and basically genocides the groups living there, so why should the current population get ownership of everything buried underground? Interesting questions, but again corner cases -- and the current population of Egypt seems to be the very opposite of such a case, for the very reasons you stated).

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by TeaBrain on Thursday October 03, 2024 @12:59AM (#41727509)
> That's fine, but the world disagrees with you, by and large.

I honestly don't like the way I ended that last sentence. If I could re-write it I'd replace "merit" with "basis in cultural lineage". I would agree that most people in the world don't default to feeling this way, but I also don't think most people have a well thought out idea of why they disagree. If it is considered that the current geographic ownership claims are retroactive ownership claims based solely on the current owners of the geography, for items that existed on the land long before the current legal nations came into existence, the claims make much less sense.

> the criterion of "proximate geographic origin" provides at least some form of an objective basis of ownership

This is part of the reason why I don't like how I used "merit", as it could get confused with legal merit, which wasn't really my intended meaning. However, the problem with this argument is that many of the cultural objects that were collected in years past were collected prior to the modern nations existing in those places. Due to this, this argument really would have little legal merit for virtually all the countries where artifacts have been collected, as those countries did not exist when the British collected the artifacts, and their current claims are a retroactive idea of ownership over what was collected before the current nation came into existence.

>the consensus view is that the ownership "claims" of recent colonial powers who extracted these artifacts coercively have no merit or basis whatsoever

There may be a opinion in the popular consciousness about this general topic, but there can't be a legal consensus, as every claim has to be evaluated individually. Without documentation on the origin and the original owners of the artifacts, and documentation establishing that said artifacts were retrieved illegally, it is impossible to establish legally that the current owners do not actually have ownership over the artifacts.

>the current population of Egypt seems to be the very opposite of such a case, for the very reasons you stated

This is very much not what I stated. The civilization that created the ancient Egyptian artifacts is completely distinct from the current culture. Besides having genetic similarities, which all humans do to some extent, modern Egyptians have near zero cultural lineage tracing to the ancient Egyptian civilization.

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by roughly on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @12:26PM (#41710594)
This is I think a thing that is difficult for Americans to understand, because the only Americans who have a thousand years of family history in the place they currently live are also asking museums for their stuff back.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by jahewson on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @02:44PM (#41712499)
There’s a big difference between a culture that mostly ceased to exist in the past 200 years, because of the USA, and one that ceased to exist 3500 years ago.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by yieldcrv on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @11:31AM (#41709743)
false dilemma, there are more options

the "most right" answer doesn't mean its the right answer. compromise results in wrong answers when there is a right answer. this isn't a standardized test.

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by graemep on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @12:33PM (#41710708)
> Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Whose culture and polity have no continuity with that of the people who made the mummy, but rather with that of later invaders.

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by pfortuny on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @12:55PM (#41711009)
What do you mean “stole”? From whom? They were literally abandoned.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by ksec on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @09:02PM (#41716174)
>They were literally abandoned.

Interesting take. If they were abandoned then I dont see how anyone could claim ownership of it.

Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by shiroiushi on Tuesday October 01, 2024 @10:21PM (#41716611)
Abandoned property generally belongs to whoever finds it and claims it.
Re:The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Ind... by Log_out_ on Wednesday October 02, 2024 @01:36AM (#41717497)
The act of stealing was buying it from a local trader who considered it part of the heathen past.