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Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by ahmedfromtunis on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:17AM (#41656254)
I don't use any their products, so I don't have any community insider insights, but based on what I've read so far, it seems like WordPress did the right thing.

If another company is profiting from the '.org' ressources (very heavily I'd imagine) without contributing back, then they need to be cutoff.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by sureIy on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:24AM (#41656301)
Makes no sense. Everyone is profiting off WordPress and probably 0.1% of those ever contributed back.

Either you give away your product or you don’t. It’s obvious the guy is being an absolute PITA because he can. This isn’t even his first time. Check out what happened with thesis dot com.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by ahmedfromtunis on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:32AM (#41656340)
I don't think the issue is about WordPress, the open source software, but rather about using up ressources on the wordpress.org servers.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by DonnieBurger on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:46AM (#41656413)
I think the issue is using a non-profit (WordPress) to suppress a for-profit's (Automattic's) competition.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by Arnt on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:03AM (#41656530)
I heard that there was an old handshake agreement that WPEngine should contribute so-and-so many developer hours to Wordpress per employee, but doesn't now and hasn't for a while. At some point the CEO of Automattic, which does contribute developer hours, blew up.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by sureIy on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:36AM (#41656760)
I keep not getting it. WordPress.org is offered as a free download and it accesses the website FOR FREE. Complaining that people don’t pay for free stuff is not a healthy mental state.

WP Engine is no different from the million hostings that auto-install WordPress and “abuse” their resources.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by 1116574 on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:46AM (#41656411)
Yep, Matt (wordpress guy) has a dramatic writing style, but in essence WPE is using plugins, their security research, user system, theming store etc, without contributing back that much.

Worth adding that WPE is owned by private equity, and they allegedly tried to remove the newsfeed from wp-admin to hide his (dramatic) posts about them

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by dncornholio on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:57AM (#41656480)
My company is also a heavy user of WordPress and never have contributed. We also hide those widgets. Do we need to be blocked as well then?
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by manuelmoreale on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:15AM (#41656605)
Does your company offer a competitor to what Automattic is offering, taking revenues from them, and make 500+ millions in revenues a year? If the answer to those is yes then I’d probably keep quiet before Matt notices you :)
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by FireBeyond on Thursday September 26, 2024 @07:09PM (#41664538)
That is a really problematic question to ask. Because remember, Automattic is not the Foundation or the open source project...

so then the question becomes "Why is the Foundation/project hamstringing a competitor to their director's for profit company who is, in theory, and legally should be, independent?"

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by batuhanicoz on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:15AM (#41656603)
Hiding the widgets isn't the main issue. If you infringe the WordPress trademark in commercial use, and ignore any attempt to make it right, and pursue legal action, W.ORG does not have to provide those free services to you.

I'm guessing you are not size of WP Engine and Silver Lake, honest question, if you were, would you want to contribute back to WordPress?

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by Arnt on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:12AM (#41656586)
Open source is a gift. There's etiquette involved.

Suppose one of your developers writes on twitter that you don't permit contribution, and you fire that developer on the next day. What reaction do you expect from the people who pay for most of the development?

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by cldellow on Thursday September 26, 2024 @09:40AM (#41658286)
I keep seeing people refer to this tweet. Can you share a link to it, please?
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by Arnt on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:44PM (#41663790)
I'm afraid not. I look at twitter only in incognito mode and don't have any history, and can't find anything now.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by rglullis on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:18AM (#41656633)
Is your company building a business with half a billion of dollars in revenue out the uncountable amount of man-hours put into Wordpress development?
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by dncornholio on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:28AM (#41656706)
We probably made a lot more then that in the past 20 years.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by rglullis on Thursday September 26, 2024 @08:20AM (#41657509)
We are talking about yearly revenues here, and something tells me that your company is not in the business of selling services that depend on WordPress code being developed
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by austhrow743 on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:15AM (#41656606)
Seems like you should act as if you will be.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by tbyehl on Thursday September 26, 2024 @09:43PM (#41665465)
> Worth adding that WPE is owned by private equity

How do you think Matt got the money to build his empire?

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by startages on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:48AM (#41656418)
WordPress Foundation is paying for the servers, so I guess they have the right to choose who gets access or not. Using the resources as a single person or a small business is not the same as using them from a hosting company with millions of websites. Other hosting companies contribute to the foundation which keeps the service running. If WPEngine isn't contributing anything, it would be unfair for other contributors/sponsors. Especially that they are making a large amount of money from it.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by sureIy on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:39AM (#41656777)
How would you feel if WordPress.org suddenly decided to lock ALL installations across the world and ask for $800/site/month to access it?

Is it their right? Sure. I don’t think you’d be here defending them though.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by appendix-rock on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:56AM (#41656472)
You’re moving the goalposts. We aren’t talking about who has a right to what. We’re talking about what is and what isn’t a deranged dick move.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by consteval on Thursday September 26, 2024 @04:08PM (#41662690)
It's not at all a dick move to block IPs that essentially DDOS your free services.

Google, Amazon, you name it do this infinite times a day with crawlers.

If you build a business on taking resources from some public source, on a large scale, you could very well be out of a business at any time. This has been the case for a long, long time. And nobody seems to take issue with it.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by seb1204 on Thursday September 26, 2024 @02:12PM (#41661414)
As so often I think it would be beneficial for the conversation to provide some more context. Single user install generated load VS WP generated load on the infrastructure of WordPress.org
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by ValentineC on Thursday September 26, 2024 @07:06PM (#41664518)
What I find fascinating is that people in this thread and elsewhere are saying that Matt funds the WordPress.org servers personally.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by bawolff on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:09AM (#41656562)
Was there ever any attempt to reach some sort of agreement on what appropriate usage would be?

I imagine if this was the real issue, then WPEngine could probably sort out some fair solution to not use more than their fair share. I dont know much about this ecosystem but surely a caching proxy is not hard to setup.

However reading between the lines, it sounds like the real issue is that WPEngine is more succesful which is making other players jealous, who are using their control over other parts of the ecosystem to give WPEngine the middle finger. In such a case its not really about resourse usage.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by batuhanicoz on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:11AM (#41656578)
We made many attempts to communicate and solve these issues long before it was made public.

They were asked to contribute back, either in cash or in people hours and they refused.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by fortyseven on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:00AM (#41658491)
Well, I hope the blow to the reputation was worth it. Regardless of what is claimed to have happened behind the scenes, the very public meltdown is what's going to live on. It's already sowing doubt internally, where I work, about recommending WordPress in general going forward.
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by 2Gkashmiri on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:57AM (#41656478)
what do you mean profiting. .org is open source. where in the open source licenses you are supposed to pay the original maintainer a share of your revenue or contribute back in code?

free software gives 4 freedoms. none of them say about contributing back. they only talk about freedom of source code.

same for OSI approved licenses. they are either permissive, MIT aka, do whatever you want or like AGPL provide source code but none that i can think of forces downstream users to contribute back to main.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by bayindirh on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:06AM (#41656540)
Think in infrastructure costs. A simple VPS is around $5/mo which is enough for some users. When you're running a company which has tons of users, all of them are doing updates, theme pulls and whatnot.

..and WPEngine channels all these requests to wordpress.org.

This creates tons of load on said .org servers. When you singlehandedly can increase the load number on an infrastructure, the owner of the infrastructure can tell you to stop. This is nothing to do with the four freedoms of software.

SourceHut had to endure something similar due to Go package repository, and they made an agreement about the bandwidth management.

I'm ha huge GPL fan, but this doesn't mean somebody can abuse their servers' resources while making tons of money because of freeloading on somebody else's servers.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by bawolff on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:21AM (#41656658)
Yes, but just because you can do something, doesn't mean it isn't a dick move.

If you are offering an API to the public, generally its considered nice if you document what is considered reasonable traffic and if someone is going above it, give them some notice before cutting them off (unless the amount of traffic is so much its affecting availability).

In this case, it doesn't seem to be about the amount of traffic at all. It doesn't seem like WPEngine was abusing the service at all but using it in the way it was expected to be used. It seems like the operator of the service has a financial interest in making WPEngine's life difficult, so they suddenly cut them off.

Do they have the right to do that? Sure. Is it a dick move? Definitely. Especially since no notice was given and it doesn't really seem like the amount of traffic or other policy violation was the issue at hand.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by consteval on Thursday September 26, 2024 @04:10PM (#41662721)
> Especially since no notice

I believe that for a long time there's been talk between wordpress and WPE. My understanding is that WPE is incredibly hostile when it comes to providing compensation. Their overuse of free resources wasn't a secret - it was known, and money was requested.

Naturally WPE said no. But of course then your IPs get banned.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by bawolff on Thursday September 26, 2024 @04:44PM (#41663145)
Was it publicly posted what "acceptable usage" of the api is? Was the same standard applied to other users of the api?
Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by consteval on Friday September 27, 2024 @11:45AM (#41671949)
Probably not, but I'm of the opinion you don't need to publicly post what "acceptable usage" is.

It's obvious and up to the maintainer's discretion. If you're nice to them and contribute that's no problem. If you're not, then your hundreds of thousands of requests a day are no good.

Software engineers are often overly analytically minded, but this is not just a technical problem, but a social one. Naturally if I walk into starbucks and order 500 iced coffees they'll turn me away.

But they don't have a sign saying what their coffee limit is, do they? No. It's a matter of courtesy and discretion. Now if I was, say, a shareholder of starbucks, they could very well make me my 500 iced coffees.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by bawolff on Friday September 27, 2024 @01:31PM (#41673354)
> Probably not, but I'm of the opinion you don't need to publicly post what "acceptable usage" is.

The allegation here is that the acceptable usage thing is basically entirely made up and instead WPEngine is being cut off due to a business dispute with a separate entity controlled by the same person.

Arguably if such a thing is true, it is pretty unprofessional. There could be other legal issues involved (ianal), but i think the primary argument is moral not legal.

Having a public policy and applying it equally would be strong evidence that this really is the reason for the block.

> But they don't have a sign saying what their coffee limit is, do they?

Sure, but if they enforced that policy arbitraily they could very easily get in trouble if it looks like there is an unacceptable ulterior motove. The most obvious example would be if they only applied it specific racial groups or something like that - highly illegal.

An example more close to the one at hand would be if one of the board members of starbucks was also on the board of a bulk coffee company and starbucks only refused bulk coffee orders in locations where this other retailer operated. This would almost certainly be considered a violation of antitrust laws. It would probably be a violation of the board's fiduciary duty. Having a public policy that is enforced equally may not be technically required but it is a good defense against allegations of various tyoes of unsavory behaviour.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by consteval on Friday September 27, 2024 @02:36PM (#41674089)
> The most obvious example would be if they only applied it specific racial groups or something like that - highly illegal.

Right, discrimination based on protected classes is illegal.

Discrimination based on other needs is not illegal, and is in fact how all businesses work. They discriminate based on income, based on how you're dressed, based on how nice you are.

> This would almost certainly be considered a violation of antitrust laws.

Not allowing abuse and DDOS of your free services is just not on this level. Sorry, in my opinion it's not even close to comparable.

If Amazon was your competitor and they also issued hundreds of thousands of requests to one of your FREE APIs would you foot the bill? Fat chance, right? That's what we're talking about here.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by bawolff on Friday September 27, 2024 @10:46PM (#41677493)
> Not allowing abuse and DDOS of your free services is just not on this level.

Sure, the debate is because its not really believable that that was happening, and sounds like a pretense.

> If Amazon was your competitor

That's the core dispute though. WPEngine is not a competitor of word press foundation. It is a competitor of automattic. For word press foundation to treat competitors to automattic as competitors to themselves seems highly unethical and possibly a violation of fiduciary duty.

Re:Wordpress.org bans WP Engine, blocks it from accessing it... by Spivak on Thursday September 26, 2024 @06:50PM (#41664384)
They're not though, WPEngine's users are the ones installing plugins. If I host my own WP site and profit off of it I'm sure I'll be allowed to download plugins. Why does that change when I hire someone to host it for me?