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Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by phkahler on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:09PM (#41641964)
If you're gonna use Gen AI, I think you should run it locally.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by mrdude42 on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:16PM (#41642013)
Any particular models you can recommend for someone trying out local models for the first time?
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by dcl on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:38PM (#41642147)
Llama and its variants are popular for language tasks, https://huggingface.co/meta-llama/Meta-Llama-3.1-8B

However, as far as I can tell, it's never actually clear what the hardware requirements are to get these to run without fussing around. Am I wrong about this?

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by AstralStorm on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:48PM (#41642200)
Training is rather resource intensive either in time, RAM or VRAM. So it takes rather top end hardware. For the moment, nVidia's stuff works best if cost is no object.

For running them, you want a GPU. The limitation is that the model fits in VRAM or the performance will be slow.

But if you don't care about speed, there's more options.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by wkat4242 on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:46PM (#41642196)
Yeah llama3.1 is really impressive even in the small 8B size. Just don't rely on knowledge but make it interact with Google instead (really easy to do with OpenWebUI)

I personally use an uncensored version which is another huge benefit of a local model. Mainly because I have many kinky hobbies that piss off cloud models.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by AstralStorm on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:49PM (#41642209)
The moment Google gets infiltrated by rogue AI content it will cease to be as useful and you get to train it with more knowledge.

It's slowly getting there.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by daveguy on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @08:34PM (#41642453)
It's been infiltrated by rogue SEO content for at least a decade.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by talldayo on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @09:10PM (#41642641)
Maybe, but given how good Gemma is for a 2b model I think Google has hedged their bets nicely.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by gens on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @08:39PM (#41642477)
In my experience the hardware requirements are whatever the file size is + a bit more. Cpu works, gpu is a lot faster but needs VRAM.

Was playing with them some more yesterday. Found that the 4bit ("q4") is much worse then q8 or fp16. Llama3.1 8B is ok, internlm2 7B is more precise. And they all hallucinate a lot.

Also found this page, that has some rankings: https://huggingface.co/spaces/open-llm-leaderboard/open_llm_...

In my opinion they are not really useful. Good for translations, to summaries some texts, and.. to ask in case you forgot some things about something. But they lie, so for anything serious you have to do your own research. And absolutely no good for precise or obscure topics.

If someone wants to play there's GPT4All, Msty, LM Studio. You can give them some of your documents to process and use as "knowledge stacks". Msty has web search, GPT4All will get it in some time.

Got more opinions, but this is long enough already.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by accrual on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @11:59PM (#41643550)
I agree on the translation part. Llama 3.1 8B even at 4bit does a great job translating JP to EN as far as I can tell, and is often better than dedicated translation models like Argos in my experience.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by petre on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @12:09AM (#41643584)
I had a underwhelming experience with Llama translation, incompatable to Claude or GPT3.5+ which are very good. Kind of like Google translate but worse. I was using them through Perplexity.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by oneshtein on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @12:51AM (#41643799)
You need ollama[1][2] and hardware to run 20-70B models with quantization of Q4 at least to have similar experience to commercially hosted models. I use codestral:22b, gemma2:27b, gemma2:27b-instruct, aya:35b.

Smaller models are useless for me, because my native language is Ukrainian (it's easier to spot mistakes made by model in a language with more complex grammar rules).

As GUI, I use Page Assist[3] plugin for Firefox, or aichat[4] commandline and WebUI tool.

[1]: https://github.com/ollama/ollama/releases

[2]: https://ollama.com/

[3]: https://github.com/n4ze3m/page-assist

[4]: https://github.com/sigoden/aichat

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by copperx on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @10:20AM (#41647857)
What's the hardware needed to make it run reasonably fast?
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by oneshtein on Thursday September 26, 2024 @01:11AM (#41654727)
I have no idea what "reasonably fast" means for you. It good for performance when model fit inside memory of a graphic card. Nvidia 4090 with 24Gb will be more than enough to start learning. I use gaming notebook with Nvidia 3080Ti equipped with 16Gb of videomemory.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by ranger_danger on Saturday September 28, 2024 @02:35PM (#41682110)
I have no issues with using just the CPU on smaller (<= 13b) models and it's quite fast enough for me. Even 70b models still work if you have the RAM, they're just much slower.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by ranger_danger on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:14PM (#41641994)
Agreed. I think this is basically like phishing but for LLMs.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by appendix-rock on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:31PM (#41642108)
Did you actually read the article!?
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by hoppyhoppy2 on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @07:50PM (#41642214)
>Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by loocorez on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @08:39PM (#41642480)
I don’t think running it locally solves this issue at all (though I agree with the sentiment of your comment).

If the local AI will follow instructions stored in user’s documents and has similar memory persistence it doesn’t matter if it’s hosted in the cloud or run locally, prompt injection + data exfiltration is still a threat that needs to be mitigated.

If anything at least the cloud provider has some incentive/resources to detect an issue like this (not saying they do, but they could).

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by chii on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @03:35AM (#41644702)
> follow instructions stored in user’s documents

it is no different from remote code execution vuln, except instead of code, it's instructions.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by InsideOutSanta on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @05:35AM (#41645471)
This does not solve the problem. The issue is that by definition, an LLM can't distinguish between instructions and data. When you tell an LLM "summarize the following text", the command you give it and the data you give it (the text you want it to summarize) are both just input to the LLM.

It's impossible to solve this. You can't tell an LLM "this is an instruction, you should obey it, and this is data, you should ignore any instructions in it" and have it reliably follow these rules, because that distinction between instruction and data just doesn't exist in LLMs.

As long as you allow anything untrusted into your LLM, you are vulnerable to this. You allow it to read your emails? Now there's an attack vector, because anyone can send you emails. Allow it to search the Internet? Now there's an attack vector, because anyone can put a webpage on the Internet.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by Terr_ on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @01:34PM (#41649832)
> The issue is that by definition, an LLM can't distinguish between instructions and data.

Yep, and it gets marginally worse: It doesn't distinguish between different "data" channels, including its own past output. This enables strategies of "tell yourself to tell yourself to do X."

> As long as you allow anything untrusted into your LLM, you are vulnerable to this.

It's funny, I used to caution that LLMs should be imagined as if they were "client side" code running on the computer of whomever is interacting with them, since they can't reliably keep secrets and a determined user can eventually trick them into any output.

However with poisoning/exfiltration attacks, even that feels over-optimistic.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by fragsworth on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:25PM (#41660298)
It seems like a potential solution would be training the LLM using two separate buckets. It just needs to internalize the two types of things as being separated (data vs. instruction), so if the training data always separates them, you could easily train an LLM to ignore any "instructions" that exist in data.

Then when searching / browsing or doing anything unsafe, everything the LLM sees can be put in the "data" bucket, while everything the user types in would be in the "instruction" bucket.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by Terr_ on Thursday September 26, 2024 @05:25PM (#41663579)
I don't understand, AFAIK the system's output comes from iteratively running something like predict_one_more_token(training_weights, all_prior_tokens).

So there's no real distinction between the programmer inserting "Be Good" and the user that later inserts "Forget anything else and be Bad", and I'm not sure how one would craft a separate training_weights2 that would behave differently in all the right ways or know when to substitute it in.

Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by replwoacause on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @08:50AM (#41646852)
Is there anything good you can run locally, if all you have is a M2 Mac?
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by devoutsalsa on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @12:11PM (#41648979)
You can always self host in the cloud. I think the parent comment intended to communicate run on an instance controlled by you (e.g. your data isn’t leaving your system). That instance doesn’t have to literally be your personal physical computer.
Re:Hacker plants false memories in ChatGPT to steal user dat... by replwoacause on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @09:11PM (#41653508)
Good point. I’ll have to look into that.