Looks to me you’re thinking about all of this like it’s some tabletop or RTS game.
So does western media.
> There was a million people on maidan in Kyiv. Nation voted for EU - they were done with Russian kleptocrats meddling with Ukrainian politics and influencing country all the time.
That doesn't mean this was smart, nor that it would work. It didn't. Kleptocrats still run the country. (I wonder why we don't call our own rich kleptocrats? Weird. I suppose people don't view cops as paramilitary stooges for capital, even though that's de facto what they are)
> Looks to me you’re thinking about all of this like it’s some tabletop or RTS game.
Better than blithely trusting the state department and american intelligence.
Also as a reminder Russia could end the war today by withdrawing its armed forces from the internationally recognized territory of Ukraine.
What does our discussion have to do with western media?
> That doesn't mean this was smart
No offence, but who are you, someone sitting in thousands kilometers away and not knowing an iota about challenges that Ukraine faced since God knows when, to say what is stupid? Democratic revolution to oust Russian politics out of your country is stupid to you?
Were American Revolution war and American Civil war stupid? People died, after all. Could’ve stayed colony or kept slaves.
> It didn't.
Yes it did, lol. And full scale invasion only solidified the victory. Russian language is increasingly vilified, Russian/Soviet symbols are being removed, corruption is being fought, national identity is being restored. It’s going to be nigh impossible to do again what Russians could afford to do in the open for 30 years.
I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. Seems to me that you cannot ignore the geopolitics. At the same time, a people have sovereignty over their land and a right to do with it what they please, but that is only an ideal and not true in practice. Well, there is nobody enforcing such ideals so you need to go to war...
Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then.
I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. And not everyone has the same objectives, and people can always contort themselves to blame everything on those they despise.
They’re framing nothing. This is literally what happened.
> As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation.
That’s irrelevant to the current situation.
> Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then.
Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. Constant meddling in business of other post-Soviet republics. Wow, poor Russia being antagonized by evil West!
> I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic.
Ah, old “hard to know REAL truth”. Straight out of Russia’s metodichka.
Eastern Europe is celebrating 30-year-anniversary of departure of Russian troops. In some countries, it happened in 1993, in others, in 1994. They left behind lots of graffiti with messages such as "the masters will be back". Not only regular soldiers, but diplomats and high officials have maintained the same attitude throughout decades since then. Countries in Eastern Europe are still referred to as "near abroad", distinct from "real" foreign countries, as if they were rebelling colonies. Instead of seeking reconciliation like Germany after the WWII, Russia has done nothing but denied its crimes in Eastern Europe and mocked victims. By trying to sabotage integration with international organizations, Russia has done everything they could to ruin the future too and keep those countries internationally isolated. Instead of respecting sovereignty, they have relentlessly meddled with internal affairs, supported extremists, fueled social division and instigated violent protests. In Ukraine, they went a step further and started the largest war in Europe since Hitler's invasion of Poland. Hundreds of thousands are dead and material damages are in hundreds of billions only because Ukraine wanted closer trade relations with the European Union.
Who's the antagonizer here?
They could have waited a year and then won the next election if they thought they had such a clear case. But they didn’t because they weren’t so sure. They chose revolution to overthrow a government elected through regular elections.
Regardless, it's best not to fight an empire unless a stronger empire buys in with their troops.
Even now ukraine can sue for peace. No amount of patriotism is worth this amount of destruction. Human lives are always worth more than ephemeral states.
This is the worst possible outcome for ukraine (the region and people, the state is disposable and of extremely dubious value).