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Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by pfdietz on Thursday September 12, 2024 @07:55AM (#41519779)
> Developing software in particular has flummoxed VW.

This is reminding me of Motorola, or really any of the old cell phone companies that were blown away by Apple and smart phones. It was easier to get a company that was good at software to make phones, than it was to make a company that was good at phones to make software.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by readthenotes1 on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:09AM (#41519880)
Apple may have produced a few pieces of popular hardware before they produce the iPhone.

I expect a more telling difference is whether the management of the successful company is overtaken by people who are better at political infighting than competing with other companies

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by repelsteeltje on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:14AM (#41519928)
But wouldn't you agree that by the time of iPhone, Apple had had a fair share of political infighting and forgetting to compete with other companies too?
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by bluGill on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:26AM (#41520040)
At the time of the iPhone Steve Jobs made the iphone an important project and so political infighting was not done. There is always political infighting, but sometimes it can work for you.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by rzwitserloot on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:30AM (#41520088)
Not really. Feels like orders of magnitude less than other companies of similar size. And still feels like that today. However, the fact that this sense of 'we are ALL and thus need not bother with anything but company-internal politics and how we influence the world at large' is missing at Apple is now hurting them: They appear to be pretty brazenly picking fights with governments thinking they are the david, and they.. really, _really_ aren't.

One wonders why.

* Lingering influence of Jobs? Even now? * Their somewhat well known weird corporate structure? * A cultural conviction that they are the underdog, instilled decades ago when Apple was doing badly, a conviction that is cherished with such religious fervour it survives even today when Apple has been top 3 market cap world wide, has reigned the profitability-in-cell-phones charts for over a decade, and in general has a profitability that makes your head spin, it's incomparably large (literally: Compare it to other big corps and it is mind boggling).

I just don't know what it is. I find it remarkable that Apple does _not_ seem like it has had its fair share of political infighting and forgetting to compete. It has had its share of that, sure. But not its fair share. Not even a tenth.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by rzwitserloot on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:26AM (#41520037)
It keeps me busy, this kind of thinking. In a good way - something to mull over.

These massive companies that epically fail to adjust, is it primarily a management style (cliché representation: Private equity takeovers – focus on 'management is a job unto itself, I do not need to know much or care much about what this company actually produces', and perhaps as a consequence, cost cutting over care about the product, and considering the general opinion about your company and products as a 'brand thing that I do not need to care about; I have a marketing department for that who can fix this by tossing some ad euros at something')...

or is it more fundamental, that even with pretty good management, companies inevitably turn into a giant rusty smattering of cogs that generally keeps running but is nearly impossible to reconfigure? That we should e.g. study what Apple is doing with its odd corporate management structure: That it is _exceptional_ for a larger company to be able to pivot quickly regardless of market, circumstance, or management team?

Or is software development just uniquely difficult and therefore it is highly likely that a company that starts with a better-than-average grip on that and worse-than-average everything else still wins over a company that needs to 'buy in' to software?

Not enough data to really know, and the answer probably a convoluted mess of 'a little bit of everything'.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by readthenotes1 on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:23AM (#41520647)
I recommend Parkinson's essay on injelitence
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by pfdietz on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:41AM (#41520199)
I think some of it is just age related. Massive, older companies accumulate older employees, who tend to be less performant and more expensive. When technologies shift their accumulated experience, which may have been keeping them viable, loses value.

I know tech workers don't like to hear about this, but it's something you all need to keep in mind as you plan your careers.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by raverbashing on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:07AM (#41519868)
Yup

Hardware engineers (most of them, anyway) make awful software developers.

They always get dregged on any slightly flexible process and higher level development.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by sandworm101 on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:26AM (#41520043)
And when software engineers are allowed to built hardware, we end up using touchscreens to turn on our headlights. Whoever decided that we need an app to open our car doors was't a hardware engineer.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by DanielHB on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:36AM (#41520138)
You use touchscreens to turn on your headlights because it is cheaper, touchscreens and embedded SoCs are so cheap these days that adding one to your car (as long as it is rectangular) is tons cheaper than wiring multiple buttons on your dashboard.

The cost of programming those displays is relatively small and fixed, it doesn't get more expensive if you sell 1 million cars or 10. But these companies still haven't managed to have proper processes for the software platforms for their cars so the software ends up sucking.

They treat their cars like video game developers, once done and released there might be a few patches. But the next car is mostly rebuilding the software from scratch.

On an aside as more people are becoming aware that buttons and knobs are actually nice you will likely see them coming back, but only on the more expensive vehicles.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by emsign on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:04AM (#41520450)
> On an aside as more people are becoming aware that buttons and knobs are actually nice you will likely see them coming back, but only on the more expensive vehicles.

While the inflationary overuse for touchscreen is driven by cost (and fashion), it's not really like that buttons are coming back only in higher priced cars. Dacia being the cheapest European automaker uses lotsof buttons in their cockpits.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by bluGill on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:28AM (#41520076)
I can design hardware - but as a programmer I know I'm not very good with it and avoid it. I know when I design something it will be subject to things I barely understand like RF and cross talk. I could get a EE degree (either formally or just by self study), but that would be a lot of work and so I think it is better to not do that. Hardware developers fail to understand they are not very good at software and they don't understand the mess they are making.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by dzhiurgis on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:13AM (#41519919)
I’ve just rented a toyota and it’s comical. How people keep buying this???

Car is perfectly fine (despite being an anaemic ICE), but damn fix your UX.

People shit on Teslas touchscreen, but buttons on your Toyotas are worse - smaller, crowded and hard to discern.

Audio connectivity feels designed by lawyers who wish you to crash car as quickly as possible (thinking about this loud - maybe it’s a good thing, like the tullock spike?)

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by taneq on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:27AM (#41520066)
The last Toyota rental I drove (think it was a ‘22 or so?) sure had a smaller, less ‘app-like’ touchscreen and a lot of physical buttons, but I could use those buttons while driving. I’m giving this one to the Toyota.

Edit: Your not meant to try and pair your phone while driving on any car.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:29AM (#41520079)
All cars I’ve rented in the last 5+ years have CarPlay/Android Auto, so it is all the same UX. Connect the phone via usb or Bluetooth, and I’m good to go. Can’t say that for Teslas.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by ianbooker on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:38AM (#41520162)
This is exactly the Volvo / Polestar philosophy. There is a Decoder podcast with their CEO about just this sentiment.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by phinnaeus on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:35AM (#41520128)
CarPlay is a handy crutch for cars with terrible software. Teslas have had generally good software.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by dzhiurgis on Thursday September 12, 2024 @07:30PM (#41526739)
Except most cars I've tried had shite carplay connectivity.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by beowulfey on Thursday September 12, 2024 @08:32AM (#41520107)
My 2019 Toyota has terrible UX. The higher end cars, particularly newer ones, are a little better (comparing Camry vs Corolla e.g.) but overall pretty bad.

Would love to hear people's opinions on car UX though. The Tesla is terrible too, as are most newer car brands. I haven't minded Hyundai cars, and I recently drove a new Nissan that was decent.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by room4 on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:04AM (#41520444)
I drove a Hyundai that wanted to sync contacts from my phone when I connected it to Bluetooth to play music. I declined for privacy reasons, and the car then had this loud booming audio request to sync contacts every single time I turned on the car and then I had to wait 30 seconds for the car to timeout/fail after my phone denied the request, and then I had to click on a touchscreen to skip the sync rather than retry.

I ended up just not using Bluetooth while I drove that car because it was such a nuisance. I'm not sure whether it was so bad because of incompetence (they never considered users not wanting to share contacts) or out of malice (they know they can wear people down through harassment and hassle to eventually share their data).

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by jaredhallen on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:40AM (#41520839)
You could get one of those bluetooth things that plugs in to your cigarette lighter and broadcasts music on a free FM channel. We have a couple and they work pretty well.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by soco on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:44AM (#41520898)
They are only useful in areas without FM stations. I had one and threw it away, because every 5 km there would be a station on the same frequency interfering so the copilot had to change the frequency... useless. What a "luck" that Switzerland is shutting down FM. Ah, and you can't do phone calls with it either.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by emsign on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:13AM (#41520537)
That's a reason for me to return the car and get my money back.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by soco on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:41AM (#41520853)
Oh I have a 10 years old VW with both buttons and touchscreen. I tell you, the buttons you can learn and they're the same across similar VW models, but as soon as you have to do anything with the displays (the big one in the cockpit and the small one on the board) things go downhill immediately. I don't know who designed such UX, but I wonder, do they have the nerve to put it in their CVs?
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by emsign on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:12AM (#41520525)
I can't use touchscreens while driving because I keep missing a lot. I'd have to look at the screen for too long. That's why I prefer low priced or older models. I'm puzzled why touchscreens are even allowed.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by mattmaroon on Thursday September 12, 2024 @10:38AM (#41521525)
I've got a Stellantis vehicle (admittedly, a higher trim one) and my girlfriend has a Model Y. I absolutely HATE driving the Model Y. Tesla's UX is far, far worse. The main thing I interact with in my car is CarPlay. Simple things CarPlay does well (making and receiving calls, providing directions, voice to text, playing music/podcasts, etc.) Tesla fails at and that's most of what a car UX is for these days.

I will literally never get a car without CarPlay. But even excepting that, Tesla's UI mostly sucks.

The answer to shitty buttons isn't shove it all 3 layers deep in a touch screen menu, it's better buttons.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by dzhiurgis on Thursday September 12, 2024 @07:29PM (#41526733)
I haven't tried Stellantis (though MB I've drove 2 years ago was awful), but CarPlay has nothing against Tesla. Maybe you are not used to it, but after a while craplay feels like a joke. Sure, Siri and custom apps is nice, but maps and its UX is just unbelievably behind.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by mattmaroon on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:26PM (#41532705)
Im very used to both, can’t stand Tesla. I’ll take my RAM any day. It was funny watching my girlfriend use CarPlay, I had to show her “honey just say Siri call mom” as she was looking for some menu on the screen. She’s just used to doing everything the hard way.

Siri is how I interact with my car while driving. Tesla’s voice recognition is straight out of a 2005 flip phone. I can’t just call someone or play the music I want to hear without touching screens. I can’t just tell the GPS where to take me because it doesn’t understand proper nouns. It’s maps routinely don’t have things or have inaccurate data. (I do love that you’ll be driving through a neighborhood and it shows you every goofy home-based business in the DB though.)

The last thing I want when driving is distraction and their UI seems designed to do it as much as possible, probably so you’ll give up and pay them for self-driving. Or you can drive at highway speeds while digging through a convoluted touch screen just to control your HVAC.

I use tons of apps on CarPlay that don’t exist on Tesla. Tesla supports very few. Apple maps is bad, luckily you can use others easily.

Tesla’s UI is so bad I honestly thought you must be trolling for a second.

Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by nojvek on Thursday September 12, 2024 @09:43AM (#41520881)
Apple had iPod which was almost an iPhone already and they had decades of hardware and UX experience. They needed the cellular bits which they didn’t all build inhouse. Qualcomm is still the modem giant and Apple still uses them.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by sunflowerfly on Thursday September 12, 2024 @11:42AM (#41522150)
This is true across many industries as well. For example, today’s SLR cameras have terrible software that is nearly impossible to change by anyone other than the manufacturer. I feel they should be a sensor and physical buttons with today’s phone hardware for brains. Let the user load custom software to control the hardware if they wish.
Re:Closing factories will not be enough to save Volkswagen by paulmd on Thursday September 12, 2024 @05:58PM (#41526031)
not only are they not going to do that, Sony’s android phones delete the firmware if you unlock the bootloader