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Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by 1970-01-01 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @02:21PM (#41448822)
Matter in other galaxies would behave differently from matter in the Milky Way if fundamental constants are not always true. I argue about this sometimes. Others keep stating that the wavelengths are equal, so everything else must be.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by gmueckl on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:14PM (#41449484)
I think the better way to ask this question is: how much large scale spatial variation can there be in the laws of physics so that the observable behavior doesn't contradict existing observations? As far as I remember, this has been studied, but I can't find a reference right now.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by jepler on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:50PM (#41450645)
wikipedia has a high level review of current constraints: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-variation_of_fundamental_...

    fine-structure constant: less than 10^−17 per year
    gravitational constant: less than 10^−10 per year
    proton-electron mass ratio: less than 10^−16 per year
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by mysecretaccount on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:49PM (#41449924)
If the fundamental constants are not constant, why not expect them to change in this galaxy as well? The appeal to "other galaxies" seems suspect to me, a way to evade falsifiability.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by itishappy on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:54PM (#41449982)
"A way to evade falsifiability" is the goal of the statement, given that we've been searching for evidence to the contrary for as long as we've been able. We haven't found any, and we've searched close-at-hand the most thoroughly.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by 1970-01-01 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:55PM (#41451286)
The idea is they're fixed/set by the overall size of the galaxy.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by mbrubeck on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:43PM (#41451639)
If the constants change over very long time spans, we could observe this by looking at distant galaxies from billions of years ago. We don’t have a way to make similar observations within our own galaxy.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by lupusreal on Thursday September 05, 2024 @06:30AM (#41455283)
What if the constants only changed over incredibly small scales, vibrating back and forth between two very similar numbers like a standing wave with extremely small amplitude and wavelength, such that any measurement done on even small scales has trouble seeing anything but the average?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by raattgift on Friday September 06, 2024 @08:19AM (#41465488)
Let's start with the universe since the ignition of the first stars. Your question is also super-interesting in the context of the very early universe, so I'll come back to that further below.

Depending on the constants, with significant fluctuation of them you'd expect spectral line broadening rather than the sharp lines we see in precision interferometry, violations of local Lorentz invariance, different structures in "stacked" spectra (like the Lyman-alpha forest), and instabilities in Keplerian orbits. Present measurement precision of subatomic transition spectra has really boxed you in on this: many physical constants have relative standard uncertainties on the order of 10^-10 or better.

> any measurement ... [sees only] the average

So you'd start wondering: in the limit of infinitesimal fluctuations, is a fluctuating constant just constant rather than an "effective constant"?

Where's there's still wiggle room is in the exact masses of heaver generation standard model particles (top quark, tau mass, W-to-Z mass ratio for example) and somewhat frustratingly Newton's gravitational constant, all of which have relative standard uncertainties worse than 10^-5.

(There's a quick explanation of standard uncertainty and relative standard uncertainty at <https://www.physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Info/Constants/defi...>)

However, assuming cosmic inflation, one might expect incredibly small scale fluctuations in physical constants to be stretched, just like incredibly small scale fluctuations in the densities of matter and radiation. This could lead to later-universe regions of arbitrary size with a significantly different value for one or more physical constants, just like we see regions relatively stuffed with galaxies (filaments) and regions that are relatively empty (supervoids). We'd expect that when we look at different parts of the sky we'd see differences in things like the Lyman-alpha forest, the population and/or spectra and/or light curves of quasars/supernovae/variables, and so on.

So, in order to have the apparently constant physical constants we observe, while keeping your idea that there are tiny fluctuations in them, you'd have to suppress high frequency fluctuations in the constants in the very early universe, because otherwise you'd have to suppress gross effects like different gas and dust chemistry when comparing one galaxy cluster to another.

And we are looking: https://cen.acs.org/physical-chemistry/astrochemistry/Scient...

(The cosmic inflation epoch predates the "freezing-out" of some of the physical constants, so my thinking is that during inflation there must be some precursor constant(s) that determine(s) the mass of the electron (for example) once there are electrons after the electroweak epoch. Even after inflation the ordinary expansion of the universe can stretch fluctuations enough that (assuming your idea) there is likely to be a directional dependence on precision extragalactic astronomy.)

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by mr_toad on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @08:44PM (#41452360)
The galaxy is very small compared to the size the universe. If there were observable differences from 100k light years away (so just 100k years ago), the differences across billions of light years should be much more noticeable.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by wongarsu on Thursday September 05, 2024 @12:49AM (#41453575)
If the constants are the same in distant galaxies, then that's either a massive coincidence or the constants are stable over both time and space (because of lightspeed delay). The further away we look, the more obvious any effect should be.

If we detect a change then it's worth checking if this is also observable over shorter distances and timescales, and at that point we would look at our own galaxy.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by rkagerer on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:18PM (#41449527)
What's meant by "the wavelengths are equal"? (And have we measured comparable wavelengths in other galaxies?)
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by fnordpiglet on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:53PM (#41449973)
Presumably they mean propagating EM radiation we observe from earth appears to behave the same on earth as we observe from distant galaxies since the event that created them happened at a time much different than ours and a distant region of space.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by saalweachter on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:06PM (#41452490)
I mean, technically the EM radiation we observe from distant galaxies does look different than the EM radiation we observe locally: it's red-shifted.

I'm sure someone has proposed this is due to physical constants changing over time, rather than the expansion of space-time, and I'm sure someone else has explained why this is wrong.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by itishappy on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @03:55PM (#41450007)
The wavelengths of physical processes are equal. If fundamental constants changed, we'd expect, say, the Lyman series to change too.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by analog31 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:17PM (#41452553)
Yes, we've measured comparable wavelengths. It's one way we can measure the red shift. Not just (red shifted) absolute wavelengths, but the relative spacing between them are quite sensitive to physical constants. These spectra can also be used for identifying the elemental composition of stars.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by cryptonector on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:44PM (#41452710)
> What's meant by "the wavelengths are equal"?

Absorption lines of the elements in the stars whose starlight we observe. THey are the same after correction for redshift.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by renewiltord on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:02PM (#41450098)
One thing I have been arguing for a long time is that the fundamental constants are different until we observe them. i.e. if we don't observe it, it's possible for a tennis ball to travel through a wall. But in the universal program, if we will now or later observe the result, then it won't happen. But it'll happen so long as we will never observe the result. In fact, it's probably happened many times.

No one has proven that this is impossible, AFAIK.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by ezrast on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:24PM (#41450352)
What does "impossible" mean to you if not that a thing and it's consequences can never be observed?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by renewiltord on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:57PM (#41450719)
Impossible means it does not happen, not that it does not happen only when we look. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. After all, as the comment I replied to pointed out, other galaxies can have different constants. We have to be humble and admit we just don't know.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by ezrast on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:34PM (#41451117)
This seems like a distinction without a difference, since we can never positively categorize any unobserved phenomenon as impossible (vs merely unobservable). To me, it seems ontologically cleaner to treat existence and observability as the same thing. shrug
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by renewiltord on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:04PM (#41451345)
Okay, fine, I'll come clean, I was just making an unfalsifiability joke. The original god-of-the-gapsy comment was the one that got me. Always just out of reach of our verifiability is the magic. Why not all the way out?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by ezrast on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:24PM (#41451508)
Whelp, looks like I'm today's Poe's Law poster child. ;)
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by jiggawatts on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:25PM (#41451023)
The problem with these type of arguments is rigorously defining “we” and “look”.

Turns out that our gaze has no effect on anything and we’re uninteresting squishy bags of mostly water as far as physical processes are concerned.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by renewiltord on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:31PM (#41451083)
Yeah, but no one has proven that this is impossible so it's still possible. Just like OP comment.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by wizzwizz4 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:30PM (#41451555)
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by Gooblebrai on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:11PM (#41451419)
How can you even prove a negative?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by Intermernet on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:29PM (#41452616)
Logical mangling time: If you can't prove a negative, how can you prove that you can't?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by dmateos on Thursday September 05, 2024 @02:38AM (#41454160)
By "Observe" dont they mean the act of any photon "hitting/interacting with" the system collapsing it into a known/predictable state.

Not specifically a "intelligent" observer per se.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by gitaarik on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:34PM (#41450471)
Well, if you think about it, on a large scale of the universe, our laws are helped by our mathematical inventions of dark matter and dark energy. So is there really dark matter and dark energy, or is our understanding of the laws of the universe incomplete?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by foxyv on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:39PM (#41451163)
As I understand it, dark matter and dark energy are just placeholders for discrepancies between our current physical model and observations made by telescopes like Hubble and Kepler. This could mean either that our measurements are inaccurate, or that the model is incomplete. Honestly, I think that both are extremely likely.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by AlexAndScripts on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:51PM (#41451690)
Dark matter (matter that has mass but does not interact in any other way) might be the literal solution. But there are also other suggestions (MOND is a big one).

The https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Cluster is pretty interesting.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by BurningFrog on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:36PM (#41452655)
"Dark matter" and "dark energy" could just as well be called "unexplained matter" and "unexplained energy".

These terms are mostly placeholders for things we don't understand.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by cowl on Thursday September 05, 2024 @05:15AM (#41454928)
not even that. "unexplained matter" implies that there is some matter to explain (what type etc) when in reality is an unexplained observation that could be explained by current laws/constants if only there was some more (actually a lot more) matter. is a pure mathematical construct and mathematically it wold be just as valid to ad "dark constant modifier"
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by foxyv on Thursday September 05, 2024 @05:04PM (#41460394)
I think they can also just be an unknown phenomena. They don't need to be literal mass or energy. Essentially, to fit our current model to observations of how our galaxies and the universe in general behave, we need to add mass and energy to the equation to make it match. Essentially, dark matter and dark energy are fudge factors to get our models to work.

There are a ton of theories to reconcile the differences, but very few are provable with our current techniques. Detecting literal dark matter is one possibility. Changes in universal constants would be another.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by roywiggins on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:17PM (#41451447)
Our understanding of the laws of the universe is incomplete either way. If dark matter exists, we still don't know what it's made of or exactly what properties it has.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by thewarpaint on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:36PM (#41451130)
> So is there really dark matter and dark energy, or is our understanding of the laws of the universe incomplete?

These propositions are not mutually exclusive, the former implies the latter, right?

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by wisty on Thursday September 05, 2024 @02:17AM (#41454056)
The mainstream thought is that they are real and undetected, but there are theories that they aren't and there's plenty of attempts to modify laws to explain them away (and I suspect there's some wistful thinking that there's maybe a Noble prize there, so there's already been a fair bit of work done, even though it's very controversial).
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by foxyv on Thursday September 05, 2024 @06:31PM (#41460936)
To be fair, the last time someone explored a discrepancy between known physics and empirical observation we got quantum mechanics and relativity. There is a commonly held belief that as observations outpace theory that we'll have a similar leap in technology. I think this is why everyone was so excited about the LHC and Kepler Observatory.

I don't know whether the next breakthrough in physics will be quite as relevant in our lives as quantum and relativistic physics. It would be nice if we could link gravity and E/M like we did with the strong and weak forces. Who knows what we could do if we knew how those two go together.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by cthalupa on Thursday September 05, 2024 @03:56AM (#41454543)
Many, many, many scientists have asked this question. Many have made careers out of arguing the case.

But, the overwhelming majority of scientists that start out asking those questions ultimately land on the mainstream theories around dark matter and dark energy being our best, most consistent, and broadest ranging answers.

If someone were to come to them with a better theory that could explain more completely the sum total of these observations they would almost certainly be open minded about it.

So... is there really dark matter and dark energy? Probably. We've got a whole lot of evidence that isn't explained better by any alternatives. But I doubt any of these scientists would say it's totally impossible.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by gitaarik on Thursday September 05, 2024 @04:20AM (#41454650)
Yes of course, it's the best theory we currently have. Also Newton's gravitational theory was the best explanation until someone came with a paradigm shift that explained the observations better. And we seem to be quite stuck with the current theories, so I suspect we might need another paradigm shift.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by zehaeva on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:18AM (#41457441)
I'm not sure the SR is really that large of a paradigm shift.

All Einstein did, I know that conceptually this was a large leap and just saying "all he did" is doing him a severe disservice for his contributions, is note that the mass of an object is dependent upon the speed of the object. Such that for velocities that are not an appreciable fraction of c we can use Newton's laws of gravitation perfectly well.

TLDR; Einstein did not replace Newton, he tweaked him.

Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by foxyv on Thursday September 05, 2024 @06:19PM (#41460864)
Newton's gravitation is still pretty relevant today. Only in special circumstances is relativity necessary. I wonder if Dark Matter and Dark Energy will be just as relevant in the future?
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by cryptonector on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @09:16PM (#41452548)
Not necessarily. We have redshift and we use that to measure distance (in space and time). If fundamental constants were different in the past that might merely change only what distances we measure.
Re:The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constant... by analog31 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @12:51PM (#41458400)
That would probably require quite a coincidence, since the redshift and the spacing between wavelengths both depend on the same constants but in different ways.