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Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by fsckboy on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:46PM (#41430771)
you bring up psychology, then completely botch it, just as the study did.

>sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this...thus, people who are long-term unemployed likely feel that they lack control of their lives because this is true.

you and the study are not controlling for people who feel they lack control of their lives tending to do a poorer job of finding work, and even doing a poorer job of keeping a job; people whose self esteem is more fragile being more likely to lose their jobs, reinforcing their negative self images: but that's not unemployment doing it (the study does hedge a lot by saying "associated" as if they are not suggesting cause).

I'll bet if they had done a Big 5 Factor analysis of the samples in the study we would see lots of clustering, a much more interesting result than what the study found, and Big 5 Factor results are not known to change as the result of unemployment.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by anigbrowl on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:53PM (#41430802)
It's equally plausible that employers treat people with particular trait cluster poorly, and that eventually they give up on getting abused.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by robomc on Monday September 02, 2024 @11:17PM (#41430909)
don't know if that's equally plausible
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by ericjmorey on Monday September 02, 2024 @11:47PM (#41431056)
Probably more likely TBH
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @12:28AM (#41431268)
Employees abuse their employers, too.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by kelnos on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @12:54AM (#41431397)
Not in ways that generally matter. If someone is embezzling large amounts of cash to the point that it's causing the business to fail, sure. But that sort of thing is fairly rare; most "abuse" toward employers is low-stakes stuff like stealing office supplies or only pretending to work. Sure, the company is harmed, but not materially.

When an employer abuses an employee, we're usually talking about life-altering things like overwork, withholding pay, denying promised benefits, canceling promised time off, up to the truly awful stuff like firing for biased and discriminatory reasons.

I don't think you can really compare these two directions of abuse at all. The power imbalance is staggering.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @01:11AM (#41431486)
It's pretty even. Workers at all levels quit all the time. I've been both employee and employer.

> but not materially

One employee of mine stole $70,000 (about $200,000 today). It very nearly wiped the company out. (If you can't make payroll, you are forced to close.)

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by consteval on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @03:58PM (#41438574)
> Workers at all levels quit all the time

Yes, and that's allowed. If anything workers are much more gracious in this regard - typically termination happens quickly, with no two week notice. Workers typically at least give that, which they're not required to at all in the US. It's purely goodwill and generosity, so you're welcome.

> One employee of mine stole $70,000

Okay? And Bayer Pharmaceuticals gave thousands of people HIV/AIDS. What's your point here?

We gotta look at the big picture, not your experience.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by HeatrayEnjoyer on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @12:32AM (#41431287)
Not systematically. The power dynamic isn't there.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @12:45AM (#41431346)
I'm not so sure about that.

When an employee with a customer facing job randomly doesn't show up for work, as a manager, what are you going to do about it? Or doing a bit of embezzling? Or filing frivolous lawsuits against their employer? Having more than one "full time" remote job? Or cut special deals with their friends? Getting yourself "laid off" as soon as eligible for unemployment payments? Quiet quitting? Malingering? Padding their expense account?

A manager once told me one of his employees had charged a prostitute's services on his expense report.

All this stuff happens, and it isn't rare.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by kelnos on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @01:07AM (#41431467)
I spent a little bit of time responding to each of your questions with why I think they're much less harmful to an employer than pretty much anything an employer can do to their employees. But I realized none of that point-by-point stuff really matters, and deleted it all.

An employer can systematically destroy an employee's life and finances if they pull the right levers. In places like the US, employees are often terrified of getting fired or laid off because they'll lose their (and often their entire family's) health insurance. Companies use this (and other leverage) to give crap raises, make employees jump through ridiculous hoops to get promoted (and then deny those promotions anyway), "encourage" employees to take the bare minimum (or no) time off, etc.

And employees have to eat it all, or risk losing their livelihoods. Let's think about that phrase, "losing your livelihood". The fact that it's a common saying really tells us all we need to know. Employers hold the power. If they're caught doing bad things, usually there little to no penalty. Employees sometimes do sneaky things (all those things that you mention) and eventually get fired and/or sent to prison.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @01:16AM (#41431508)
You dismiss my experience, ok. All I can say is, try opening a business. Odds are pretty good you'll change your mind.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by ororroro on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @02:28AM (#41431882)
For the past 50 years western society has been transitioning from a high-trust, long-term model of employment to a low-trust, immediate payout model. Once that transition starts everyone involved frequently (rightfully) feels betrayed as the sliding trust-reality falls short of their trust-expectation. This presents as abuse and leads everyone to feel justified to commit further abuses. It takes a rarely strong leader to punch through that and re-establish a higher trust baseline and as society continues to move towards zero-trust the strength requirement to maintain that baseline increases.

As an employer you either accept that you aren't strong enough to fight it and thus try to stay ahead in how little trust you apply. Or you accept that you will pay a price (in being betrayed more than you betray and inspiring others to join in) to create and defend a higher baseline trust.

Knowing how much efficiency is lost in a low-trust environment makes dwelling on this depressing/infuriating. But unless you are a great enough leader to drag a billion people back up to a higher trust baseline, then you need to accept it or go mad in denying it.

I mention all this because in a deepening low-trust environment both employees and employers are incentivized to never acknowledge the damage done by this environment as the status quo of who wears the increasing cost of those damages is constantly renegotiated without the stabilization of trustworthy long-term expectations. All of which can surface as threads such as this one.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @02:53AM (#41432038)
My point is that the abuse goes two ways. I do not believe this is a recent phenomenon. One of my historical interests is crime, and there's nothing, nothing new about that under the sun.

My default tendency is to trust people until they prove themselves untrustworthy. It goes back to my experience with Caltech's honor system, which is a high trust system and influenced me a great deal.

BTW, the cash register was invented to stop the catastrophic levels of embezzling done by bartenders.

A friend of mine who works at a large store told me recently that management decided to have a look at their surveillance cameras, and discovered a number of employees were filching merchandise. They were all promptly fired.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @03:06AM (#41432113)
Sometimes a manager will tolerate a certain level of theft by an employee, for various reasons. But they'll never promote the thief to a position of trust, and the thief will never realize why he doesn't get promoted.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by room4 on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @10:25AM (#41435298)
> In places like the US, employees are often terrified of getting fired or laid off because they'll lose their health insurance

This is a common misunderstanding.

If an American loses their job for any reason, they can always keep their current insurance through COBRA. In fact, they don't even need to take any immediate action. If they need healthcare in the month of, or month after, their loss of job, they can go get it and then later on pay their premium to have the insurance retroactively go back in time to cover them. The only difference is that the covered person needs to pay the full premium, while the standard employment agreement has the employer paying a significant portion of the premium.

For people who don't want to stay on their previous employer's plan, the loss of the job is a "qualifying event" which allows them to immediately do things like join their spouse's plan or sign up for an individual "Obamacare" plan through healthcare.gov. There are subsidies based on income to make the premiums manageable for low-income people if they can't afford the market rate.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by guitarbill on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @11:08AM (#41435692)
> If an American loses their job for any reason

This is incorrect, it's "for limited periods of time under certain circumstances" [0] (and citizenship is not required).

> they can always keep their current insurance through COBRA. [...] needs to pay the full premium

This is true but vastly underplays the cost. It isn't unusual for "the full premium" to be over a thousand dollars per month [1] (!). They even get to charge you an "administrative fee". Oh, and there's also tax implications.

> For people who don't want to stay on their previous employer's plan, the loss of the job is a "qualifying event" which allows them to immediately do things like join their spouse's plan or sign up for an individual "Obamacare" plan through healthcare.gov.

More likely for people who can't stay on their previous plan because it would bankrupt them. Or if their spouse is not working. What happens if the employee has children/dependents on the plan? Etc, etc.

None of this is easy. Switching insurance changes which doctors are "in network", so at minimum it's significant hassle. At worst, their or a family member's current treatment is only partially or not at all covered.

So, in practice, parent's description is accurate enough.

[0] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/health-plans/cobra

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/cobra-insurance-cost-7486539

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by anticensor on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @02:58AM (#41432067)
> Having more than one "full time" remote job?

Not your business policing that unless they actively causes reduced output or conflict in the work they do for your business.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @03:08AM (#41432130)
Yeah, I've seen this debated at length numerous times here. If that is your opinion, you shouldn't object to productivity monitoring software installed on your work laptop. After all, you're being paid for your time.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @04:49AM (#41432753)
You’re being paid for your labor. Your time is a proxy for that labor. If an employee can do two jobs at once, then let them without intrusive monitoring. If the intrusive monitoring is the only means of determining their output, then fine, but I’m gonna go ahead and guess that there’s less orwellian metrics, and that the primary motive for their introduction is to force more work out of already productive employees by making them self-police, panopticon style.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by em-bee on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @05:15AM (#41432914)
If an employee can do two jobs at once

nobody can work 16 hours a day and be focused all the time. heck, most people can't even do 8 hours of focused work. i am not paying you to sit on a chair, but to actually pay attention. if you do two full time jobs, you are not doing the work at the required focus.

sure, there may be jobs where that doesn't matter, and there are jobs that are paid full time but aren't actually full time jobs. like a sysadmin in a small company, where our boss told him that his job was to keep the servers running. if he has nothing to do he is welcome to goof off. and in such a job he could also have used the free time to do side jobs, or a second job.

but for most jobs it does matter that you are focused working for the whole time, and if i find out that an employee is doing a second full time job then i will be very much concerned at that persons effectiveness.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @05:26AM (#41432985)
Can you measure their performance? If so, I assume you expect a certain volume of work from your employees. If they keep up with that volume without paying their full attention, why is that your problem? If they aren’t doing their jobs it’s a completely different story, and I don’t blame you for your worry, but frankly what business of yours is it how they get the job done IF they do it to your desired standard? I’m sure they aren’t having fun doing 16 hours of work, but they’ve got bills to pay.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by em-bee on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @10:03AM (#41435075)
If they keep up with that volume without paying their full attention

some work is not about volume but about quality. and exactly the fact that the work can not be measured is the problem. some work can not be done effectively when you are tired, and some work is even dangerous. driving for example. paying attention to safety and security requires you to be a wake and able to focus.

as a programmer i have good days and bad days, and noone can say whether my work is the best i can manage or is slacking because i have a second job. and if i am spending more than my market rate salary as a programmer affords then i need to change my lifestyle, not get a second job.

in germany for example the laws for the maximum time of work an employee is allowed to do in a day covers all jobs. two full time jobs would simply not be possible because you are required to have 11 hours of break between two workdays.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @02:28PM (#41437664)
I’m not trying to make arguments about work where the output isn’t measurable; Of course businesses are going to err on the side of caution and try to weed out employees with second jobs in that case. I am also very pro labor protections and want far more here in the US. My issue is with businesses that seem to see their employees as their property and over-scrutinize their lives outside of work, even in cases where the quality of that work can be clearly measured to be adequate.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @02:10PM (#41437490)
For many jobs (like programming) measuring productivity is nearly impossible. But if a programmer is being paid for 40 hours of work, and he only does 20, then the employer is going to feel cheated, because the employer is only getting half of the productivity the programmer promised him.

The impracticality of measuring the productivity is irrelevant.

Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @02:37PM (#41437744)
I would argue that if what the employer expects to be done in 40 hours can be done in 20 by a skilled employee, then it’s not exactly the employee’s job to tell them to allocate more work on his/her plate for the same amount of pay. That business needs to do a better job of understanding the work they need done. This, of course, won’t apply to a job like a call center or something where the time on the job is itself the labor being done, only in cases where the output is measurable. But in those cases, the employer’s feeling cheated by not being able to waste the time of/underpay that skilled employee doesn’t exactly sadden me.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by WalterBright on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @04:26PM (#41438873)
Again, it is rarely possible to quantify the productivity of a programmer. That's why we pay them according to how many hours they work. Contracting for 40 hours but only delivering 20 is fraudulent.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @06:36PM (#41476875)
I’ll put it this way: if I feel like I’ve given you 40 hours of work in 20 hours, I’m going to lie to you and go do something else unless I enjoy my job, and I don’t feel like that’s morally wrong unless I’m incorrect about my output.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @04:59AM (#41432811)
Your loss is an expense, and an employee’s loss is the threat of homelessness. That’s the reason I find your perspective difficult to agree with. You’re holding the cards in these interactions.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by nec4b on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @03:14PM (#41438145)
He said he nearly lost his business, that means his and his employees livelihood. How is this difficult to see.
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by BriggyDwiggs42 on Saturday September 07, 2024 @04:22PM (#41476250)
I mean small business (under like 20 employees) owners are more precarious, but my point still stands honestly. Do you really think business owners are under the same threat of homelessness as their employees?
Re:Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy by ericjmorey on Monday September 02, 2024 @11:46PM (#41431052)
How would you control for this? How would you control for the opposite?

BTW there's a lot of data that shows that it's the opposite of your assumptions that's true.