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Re:Intelligence is not like height by gwervc on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @09:56AM (#41367570)
I read a large part of this article. While it appears to be really serious notably by the vocabulary used, like other articles trying to "debunk" genetic intelligence it pushes too hard its narrative.

In particular, two semantic tricks are used. First, the fact that current genetic markers aren't a good prediction for IQ heritability is used as an argument against it. The other likely explanation that our understanding of those markers is widely incomplete is not explored.

Second, is the more common "IQ isn't intelligence" trick. Sure, the measure doesn't encompass everything that is making intelligence, but it is still a somewhat interesting proxy as there is a high correlation between intelligence and IQ.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by bokoharambe on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:33AM (#41367987)
It just seems strange to me that, like in the case of mental illnesses such as depression or Schizophrenia, scientists insist on looking for genes or even GWAS correlations and just aren't finding anything. At a certain point, you have to wonder if something other than genetics accounts for the observed heritability.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by practicemaths on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:39AM (#41368053)
Maybe it isn't entirely a hardware issue. Maybe it is a software issue.

Where do persons get their software from? The environment. Observing how their parents/family/etc interact.

I think it's fair to say that communication matters and that communication & experiences will have an affect on peoples perceptions.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by passion__desire on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:52AM (#41368206)
Depression is clearly a hardware issue. So also ADHD.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by inthebin on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:35AM (#41368728)
Depression very clearly is both a hardware issue and a software issue.

rolled 0.6 on hardware + 0.4 on software = 1.0

rolled 0.4 on hw + 0.6 on sw = 1.0

rolled 0 on both = 0.0 = maximum depression

rolled 1 on both = 2.0 = golden retriever with good owner

Re:Intelligence is not like height by practicemaths on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:55AM (#41368243)
So riddle me this.

Hypothetical situation.

Take two dogs from the same litter.

Raise one with love and kindness. Play with it. Socialize with it.

Then take the other one and neglect and abuse the hell out of it.

Which dog do you think will show signs of depression?

Still think it's clearly just a hardware issue?

Re:Intelligence is not like height by passion__desire on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:59AM (#41368287)
If you give all the love in the world to a schizophrenic, will he stop hallucinating?
Re:Intelligence is not like height by practicemaths on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:13AM (#41368464)
We're looking at cause here not 'cure' or treatment.

Regardless schizophrenic individuals probably would do better with being treated with kindness, respect, compassion, and love than with derision and rejection. At least observational that has been my experience.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by randomdata on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:01AM (#41368323)
If you put an LLM on better hardware, will it stop hallucinating?
Re:Intelligence is not like height by itishappy on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:21AM (#41368562)
Anthropomorphization of LLMs is bad, but the reverse is worse. This is not psychology.

Although... has anyone tried quantizing schizophrenia?

Re:Intelligence is not like height by roywiggins on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:38AM (#41368765)
Re:Intelligence is not like height by passion__desire on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:36AM (#41368741)
depends on if you consider message passing (neuro-transmitters) in a graph NN as a hardware or software.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by randomdata on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:52AM (#41368898)
I'm not sure the distinction is meaningful at a high level. That which can be implemented in hardware can be emulated in software.

It may be significant with respect to a specific implementation. Do you mean to imply that the current crop of LLMs hallucinate only due to some flaw in the hardware they run on?

Re:Intelligence is not like height by passion__desire on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @12:48PM (#41369680)
There is no software at all, it is all hardware. These are mere abstractions because the reality offers some guarantees which allows one to transfer one system onto another as if the underlying system didn't matter. Those guarantees allows one to speak of commonalities between one stuff and another.

ref : The Universe is Hostile to Computers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaZ_RSt0KP8

Re:Intelligence is not like height by randomdata on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @01:01PM (#41369895)
In that vein, there is no hardware either. It too is just an abstraction. However, that is not particularly meaningful. We draw lines around those abstractions and are able to compartmentalize them when discussing them.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by passion__desire on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @02:06PM (#41370767)
I think we agree. If hardware was perfect, we wouldn't need ECC in RAMs. The reason to do this is we are poking the walls of compartments here.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by roywiggins on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:36AM (#41368744)
Once someone's lost touch with reality, maybe not. In the earliest stages? Maybe, yeah:

> McFarlane believes that psychosis can be prevented with a range of surprisingly low-tech interventions, almost all of which are designed to reduce stress in the family of the young person who is starting to show symptoms.

> McFarlane cites research done at UCLA suggesting that certain kinds of family dynamics — families that don't communicate well, or are overly critical — can make things worse for a young person at risk of schizophrenia.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/10/20/3566400...

Re:Intelligence is not like height by hirvi74 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @06:28PM (#41373905)
I can believe it. Not smoking is a great way to prevent certain types of lung cancer. However, if you have lung cancer, quitting smoking won't cure it.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by tourmalinetaco on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:10AM (#41368435)
This argument is genuinely horrible. Many times we have two “dogs”, same litter, same love and care, and one will be depressed and the other won’t be. Still think it’s just a software issue now hmmm?

Seriously, can you not just comprehend that it’s a complex issue and there is no singular source you can blame? If your kid committed suicide should I levy child abuse charges against you? And where does someone “learn” depression or schizophrenia anyway, especially if their parents are not acting the same way?

Re:Intelligence is not like height by practicemaths on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:14AM (#41368483)
Hmmm:

"Maybe it isn't entirely a hardware issue."

Maybe read what I said first before going off.

"And where does someone “learn” depression or schizophrenia anyway, especially if their parents are not acting the same way?"

Man, I fear your family...

Re:Intelligence is not like height by gruez on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:07AM (#41368400)
>like in the case of mental illnesses such as depression or Schizophrenia, scientists insist on looking for genes or even GWAS correlations and just aren't finding anything

Source? Wikipedia says:

>A central point of debate on GWA studies has been that most of the SNP variations found by GWA studies are associated with only a small increased risk of the disease, and have only a small predictive value. The median odds ratio is 1.33 per risk-SNP, with only a few showing odds ratios above 3.0.[1][46] These magnitudes are considered small because they do not explain much of the heritable variation. This heritable variation is estimated from heritability studies based on monozygotic twins.[47] For example, it is known that 40% of variance in depression can be explained by hereditary differences, but GWA studies only account for a minority of this variance.[47]

which admittedly isn't airtight proof for "depression is 100% genetic!!1", but isn't exactly "just aren't finding anything" either.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by pfisherman on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @07:23PM (#41374354)
It is a bit more nuanced than that. An incorrect unstated assumption here is that schizophrenia or depression is a singular disease rather than a group of observable symptoms where any two cases may or may not have the same underlying cause.

There are certain types of schizophrenia that are highly heritable and others that are more sporadic. Highly pathogenic variants tend to be very rare because those regions of the genome are under evolutionary constraint.

GWAS are used is to figure out which genes may be involved in the pathology. So we are essentially looking at rare cases of inherited disease to figure out which genes might play a role in more common non inherited versions.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by sillysaurusx on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:38AM (#41368047)
Environmental factors are certainly a part of those. I heard a story of someone being stranded at a lighthouse alone for many months, and he had a break from reality which affected him the rest of his life. It's always seemed interesting that the brain can be damaged by stress rather than physical injury – or that perhaps stress causes physical injury.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by Blot2882 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:40AM (#41368056)
> but it is still a somewhat interesting proxy as there is a high correlation between intelligence and IQ.

How does one find a definition of intelligence that allows us to correlate it to anything? My understanding is an IQ is defined and intelligence is not.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by AlanYx on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:56AM (#41368254)
Psychometric intelligence ("g") is defined correlationally viz. cognitive tasks; that is, the definition is itself a correlation. But it's robust in the sense that it correlates beyond the correlations used in its definition, e.g.: https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatt...
Re:Intelligence is not like height by Blot2882 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @12:47PM (#41369661)
"g" is a measure of narrow set of skills and job performance outcomes that favor western developed society. It's not an observable, it's an inferred value. It makes sense that people good at math and reading are going to perform well in jobs that involve math and reading. And people without access to good schooling or even textbooks are going to have worse performance.

I don't think it's appropriate to measure intelligence as a correlation between the few things a statistician cares about, personally. It would be a naively meritocratic view to think performing well at the highest paying jobs is a decent measure for intelligence.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by hirvi74 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @06:41PM (#41374033)
http://bactra.org/weblog/523.html

I am not sure if my 'g' is high enough that psychologist will allow me to express my opinions on the topic, but I have found the argument in the blog I linked to be quite interesting.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by karol on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:52AM (#41368204)
Agreed.

It's a classic post-modern 'we cannot define intelligence even when we see it'. IQ is such a bad proxy for intelligence! There's no gene for IQ! Regardless, let's keep digging in genes because that's the established science and grants are coming our way. This is the best available study to date!

If that's not a great example of looking in a wrong place, I am not sure what is.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by hirvi74 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @07:03PM (#41374199)
I've often wondered if IQ is in protected state in the field of psychology.

What I mean: Psychology cannot afford for IQ to be disproven or invalidated. Doing so would completely undermine a significant portion of field. It would be like if evolution was disproven in biology -- absolutely gutting. (Just an analogy, don't kill me).

I see this when people bring up Lewis Terman's studies on giftedness or Richard Feynman's IQ score of ~124 -- especially the latter.

People come rushing out of the woodworks with statements like, "Well, Feynman was probably goofing off," "Feynman's result cannot be accurate -- he was a Putnam Award winner in high school," "Test were different back then," etc..

Sure, all of those could be right, but we only can operate off of what we know. The actual cold truth? We will never know.

However, like a knife through the heart, people refuse to even accept Feynman's score as a possibility. Feynman was an exceptional person. Exceptional people are outliers -- perhaps in more than one way.

Personally, I think it crushes people's souls to know that a famous theoretical physicist scored lower on an IQ score than expected, but still accomplished more in life than they did.

That is why I personally believe life is the one true IQ test. You get one shot. One's true intelligence is what you do with it. But hey, maybe my IQ is too low?

Re:Intelligence is not like height by Xen9 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @10:43AM (#41368107)
One must add that IQ & height distributions ALSO look the same despite the latter and artificial one being a good proxy for intelligence.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by cool_dude85 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:06AM (#41368383)
Lol, who ran a correlation analysis between intelligence and IQ to convince you that the "correlation" between the two is high?
Re:Intelligence is not like height by alexey-salmin on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:57AM (#41368954)
> Lol, who ran a correlation analysis between intelligence and IQ to convince you that the "correlation" between the two is high?

Well you can ridicule this statement if you like, but I can suggest a good-faith approach to this question. For example you can trying coming up with a few definitions of what intelligence could be and then look for correlation between this definitions and IQ.

I can go first: intelligence can be reasonably defined as "knowledge and skills to be successful in life, i.e. have higher-than-average income". This definition of intelligence strongly correlate with IQ. There are other possible approaches but all the ones I can think of (e.g. results in math tests) have at least some correlation with IQ.

Now how do you see intelligence? Does it correlate with IQ?

Re:Intelligence is not like height by Blot2882 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @12:57PM (#41369833)
I go in more detail in my other comment but I would imagine this is a definition most people can't get behind.

> intelligence can be reasonably defined as "knowledge and skills to be successful in life, i.e. have higher-than-average income"

I think it just crumbles under light scrutiny. People have higher income for all kinds of observable reasons that don't have to do with intelligence. I have higher income than other employees at the same level just based on where I live.

Intelligence is something that is defined by academics. Surprise surprise that it it measures how people perform in a narrow set of academic skills.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by cool_dude85 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @01:17PM (#41370129)
So someone born in Sub-Saharan Africa is almost definitionally "less intelligent" than anyone born in the US by this definition? I would say that this does not correlate well with "intelligence" at all.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by alexey-salmin on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @02:01PM (#41370687)
No, because many people in Africa have higher-than-average salary in their region. If you adjust the definition to be "higher-than-median", it will be exactly 50%.
Re:Intelligence is not like height by aithrowaway1987 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:12AM (#41368460)
A good joke that's not quite a joke: the very existence of Mensa proves that IQ and intelligence are wholly uncorrelated, since you'd have to be an idiot to even associate with those people (let alone pay $100/year in dues).
Re:Intelligence is not like height by Workaccount2 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:26AM (#41368615)
Mensa is mostly just a club for people who are disproportionately cultural outsiders. A lot of them have the same interests that are harder to come across in regular day to day life.

It's not so much a circle jerk of "we are so smart" as it is a circle jerk of "no one else wants to play SET! with me".

Re:Intelligence is not like height by wenc on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @01:44PM (#41370453)
I was a gifted child and in the 1980s before the internet it gave me a community of adults who had a life of the mind and were for the most part professionals, whose experiences I really benefited from a lot from as a 12 year old.

I don’t know if the IQ test (Advanced Raven Matrices) was a useful bar — there were lots of smart people who weren’t in Mensa — but there were enough smart people in it that I found a community of like minded folks. It’s not easy for kid to find a community like that but I did.

Most people think Mensa is full of self aggrandizing nerds but that wasn’t my experience (it varies by chapter).

Mensa probably doesn’t have a purpose today but pre Internet it did, even if by accident. I don’t think IQ is a useful membership criterion due to sheer arbitrariness but sometimes arbitrary groupings of people can work.

I would also say that people who have a knee jerk negative reaction against Mensa are no more likeable than the socially inept segment of the Mensa membership they disparage. They have the same kind of puffed up pride that they dislike.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by wenc on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @01:39PM (#41370392)
Why do you feel so strongly justified in holding this opinion? Is it just vibes? Do you have data?
Re:Intelligence is not like height by aithrowaway1987 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @06:25PM (#41373876)
It's not "vibes" but it is a moral perspective, not an opinion informed by data. In particular the total absence of any scientific definition of intelligence makes any "data" meaningless, which is why my comment was a semi-joke, and certainly not an "opinion." When I say Mensa members are dumb I mean it in the same way that Trump voters are dumb. I am not making a comment about overall cognitive ability.

That said, I was being mean because of Mensa's shtick is scamming naive young people. But it's an awful organization which is chock-full of very dumb adults with fully-developed cortices: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/jamie-loftus-...

You have to be ignorant and closed-minded to even consider being a member of Mensa - this is fine for a teenager but not for a real adult. I understand some people are not neurotypical and have trouble finding community (I have schizophrenia, trust me, I get it). But anyone who actually takes Mensa's membership criteria seriously is an idiot, by which I mean "utterly lacking in intellectual curiosity and proudly ignorant about science," even if they're (supposedly) good at trivial puzzles.

Re:Intelligence is not like height by blackbrokkoli on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:16AM (#41368509)
Who ever measured the "correlation" between intelligence and IQ and how?

...given that intelligence is not only abstract, but also not defined consistently?