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Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by Workaccount2 on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @05:20PM (#41250639)
The US has three dumb points pushing back on this.

The first is religious nuts who think it would be a "mark of the beast"

The second is anti-government types who are, well, anti-government anything.

The third is many business owners, because it would become much harder/risky to hire illegal immigrants to work.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by autoexec on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @05:59PM (#41250951)
The "mark of the beast" types are pretty much fine with cards that have chips in them, but they really hate it when you threaten to implant those chips into people and they want cash to remain an option - same as the anti-government types. I don't share their apocalyptic or anti-government concerns, but I'm actually kind of grateful for their passionate opposition to both of those things anyway. I don't really want an implant and the option of using cash is a very good thing.

The anti-government types do hate the idea of a national ID, but they're already forced to carry a drivers license/state ID, and SS card so they've pretty much lost the battle already.

I'm afraid that it's the business owners who are our biggest hurdle.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @06:28PM (#41251201)
Eh, depending on the flavor, the mark of the beast types don’t even really like barcodes. Allegedly Hobby Lobby does not use a barcode inventory system for this reason.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by bmelton on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @07:16PM (#41251575)
Hobby Lobby's CEO provided a handy list of reasons why they do not use bar codes, none of which have anything to do with them being marks of beasts

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hobby-lobby-mark-of-the-be...

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by autoexec on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @07:53PM (#41251945)
I will say that their list of reasons is deeply flawed.

> Human beings can't read a bar code.

- they can, and more importantly they almost never have to

> A lot of our product comes from cottage industries in Asia that couldn't mark their goods with bar codes if they tried.

- They can be added at the store/warehouse level, not every product needs one, and I've never seen a store that worked entirely on bar codes 100% of the time anyway.

> Inventory control by computer is not as accurate as you think.

- This assumes what I think, and it only needs to be more accurate than your current method. If it actually weren't more accurate, I don't think they'd have to fall back on "as you think" in their argument.

> Employees take more pride in their work when they know they are in charge, not some faceless machine.

- this doesn't even make sense.

> Customer service is better.

- questionable, but not impossible to support

> The time savings at check-out is minimal — and easily squandered.

- possible, but time savings at checkout is only one benefit.

- Reprogramming the computer for sales would take a huge effort in our case, because we put so many individual items on sale each week.

- It would take effort, but stores with much more inventory manage it just fine, even when new products are constantly coming in and sales are weekly.

> Twenty million dollars is a lot of money.

- I have no idea from the article what this is in reference to. Maybe the amount it would take for them to make the the switch? It's hard to say how much money it would save them so it's fair to say cost is a concern. I will say that over a long enough time period, it'd probably save more than it costs.

None of this means that concerns over "the mark of the beast" is really the reason, but the reasons they gave don't make a lot of sense either. It could just as easily be that poor record keeping and manual entry at the register allow them commit fraud or something.

I suspect that if the mark of the beast plays any role at all, it's that no having barcodes panders to the christian customer base they've always heavily pandered to. Even just the rumor is basically viral marketing for them to that crowd.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by quohort on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @08:42PM (#41252158)
How about this: without barcodes, you can't replace your clerks with self-checkout machines
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by autoexec on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @09:11PM (#41252276)
I'm not sure that's true, but it would make it more difficult since it'd be easier for customers to cheat. You'd need more monitoring than most stores at the very least.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by HKH2 on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @10:29PM (#41252638)
Decathlon has RFID tags.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by harimau777 on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @10:37PM (#41252673)
Personally, Hobby Lobby's poor inventory management is a major frustration for me as a customer. Unlike other stores, they don't have any way for me to check online whether the product that I want is at their store. Granted, I avoid shopping at Hobby Lobby in general due to their owners regressive views; but at those times when I couldn't find something at a competitor it would have been helpful to be able to see if I could get it from them.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by quohort on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @08:39PM (#41252143)
It doesn't need to be a national ID, it could just operate on a state-level like drivers licenses currently do.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by nine_k on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @06:08PM (#41251030)
Correct. But not insurmountable.

Make the ID card optional, so that it simplifies things if you have it, but still allows operation without it. If 80% of law-abiding population has the card, only the stubborn deniers will remain targets of easy identity theft and fraud based on it. Partly it will stop being worth the effort, partly it will serve as a good control group.

Allow but do not require to use the card for employee identification. Whoever insists on hiring undocumented immigrants, could continue. Most industries don't do that, and would reap the benefits of a more secure identification.

Don't make the card universal. A bank card with a chip does not identify you for governmental agencies, but prevents a lot of PoS fraud. It could prevent credit fraud if banks allowed me to require the card to take a loan in my name, or to make a transfer larger than $10, and provided the card identity check service to each other and to credit unions. Phones with NFC can read bank cards, so it's a good way to say "it's me, I confirm" in a secure way.

Evolutionary, opt-in, piecemeal solutions often have higher chances to succeed than abrupt all-at-once changes.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by hattmall on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @06:28PM (#41251203)
>Most industries don't do that

They absolutely do, but most of the immigrants have a form of ID that gives the companies some measure of deniability. As long as the I-9 goes through, not my problem. If it doesn't, well that's where contractors come in. Official numbers say around 14 million illegal immigrants. Reasonable estimates are closer to 22 and some non-hyperbolic estimates go as high as 40 million.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by croemer on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @10:48PM (#41252739)
If it's optional, then one would need to be able to have a central database of people who have IDs and want providers to require them.

Otherwise there's no protection against impersonation if IDs aren't mandatory.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by nine_k on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @11:17PM (#41252857)
Indeed. But a federated database is fine, too; this is how Visa and MasterCard work.

Imagine having a bunch of ID cards in you wallet, like you already have (driver's license, library card, office access card, store loyalty card) that all have interoperable smartcard interface, and a QR code of their built-in public key.

They would be much like contactless bank cards you also keep in your wallet.

Banks and phone network operators are uniquely positioned to sell a validation service for such cards, being highly connected and already having data about their existing customers, which would be an easy initial audience pool.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by nobody9999 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:11AM (#41253277)
>Make the ID card optional, so that it simplifies things if you have it, but still allows operation without it. If 80% of law-abiding population has the card, only the stubborn deniers will remain targets of easy identity theft and fraud based on it. Partly it will stop being worth the effort, partly it will serve as a good control group.

Kind of like RealID[0]? It exists right now in the US.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by nine_k on Thursday August 15, 2024 @03:17AM (#41253764)
Yes, this is a step in a right direction.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by 77pt77 on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @06:26PM (#41251194)
> The third is many business owners, because it would become much harder/risky to hire illegal immigrants to work.

Big one, but even though employing illegal immigrants is a crime, it's almost never prosecuted.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by Workaccount2 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @09:16AM (#41255645)
It's trivial as an immigrant to get a (stolen) SSN. Business owners are not responsible for checking if the SSN is stolen or not.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by sneak on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @09:26PM (#41252354)
There is another group: those of us who think the trend of requiring ID to transact is a dangerous one.

One doesn’t need to be anti-government to fear governmental intrusion on one’s rights without due process. Our current government does that now.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by mistrial9 on Wednesday August 14, 2024 @11:06PM (#41252817)
> those of us who think the trend of requiring ID to transact is a dangerous one.

agree and second -- history shows that this sort of thing goes badly due to "humans"

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by willmadden on Thursday August 15, 2024 @12:11AM (#41253029)
Governments murdered hundreds of millions of their own people during the 20th century, and the 21st is shaping up to tell the 20th to hold its beer.

Any proposal for modern ID needs to have Constitutional protections, checks, and balances or it will eventually devolve into a digital police state.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by XorNot on Thursday August 15, 2024 @12:58AM (#41253222)
How?

Everyone's like "a government went on and extermination campaign" and for some reason what would've stopped them is the difficulty in identifying who to exterminate?

As though genocides much care about accuracy.

The big secret of Nazi Germany that isn't a secret at all I is that they put a lot more then just Jews in those camps.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by willmadden on Friday August 16, 2024 @10:22AM (#41266713)
There are key differences between today and the 20th century that you are ignoring. Widely enforced digital ID not only makes it easier for them to identify who to genocide, it forces total compliance with the state, because if you do not fully comply, you risk death, imprisonment, or having your freedom and bank account revoked.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by XorNot on Tuesday August 20, 2024 @05:49AM (#41298456)
I mean surely then nations with little in the way of digital or personal ID are definitely immune to genocides and do not in fact make up the vast majority of extant genocides committed in recent years or throughout history...[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:28AM (#41253340)
A lack of national ID cards would not have hindered the Nazis in carrying out mass murder one bit.
Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by willmadden on Friday August 16, 2024 @08:12AM (#41265616)
More apropros to the current situation, Henryk Jagoda and the bolsheviks killed/starved between 29 million to 113 million people, depending on estimates. They certainly ID's people, based on ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, and class status.

My point is to not make it easier for them.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by DiogenesKynikos on Friday August 16, 2024 @07:00PM (#41271140)
Stalin killed around a million people in the purges. Several million people died in a famine in the early 1930s, which was partially due to Stalin's economic policies.

Figures like 29 million (not to mention 113 million, which would hardly leave anyone in the USSR) are simply not credible. I suspect the 29 million figure comes from counting the victims of the Nazi invasion of the USSR, but those deaths are on Germany's balance.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by willmadden on Thursday August 22, 2024 @06:34PM (#41324872)
They are credible. That estimate was directly from perplexity.ai with sources. It aligns with what I've come across in my own reading as well.

If you think the holodomor and red terror only killed a couple million people, I've got some beachfront property to sell you in Idaho.

Re:Inside the "3 billion people" national public data breach by calculatte on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:12AM (#41253281)
You're forgetting the entire political left, who claim only whites are intelligent enough to get IDs.