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Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Sunday August 04, 2024 @03:43AM (#41151781)
Archive.org is such a godsend.-

The entire information 'substrate' of society is ephemeral, if digital, and none (at least not enough) seem to have noticed.-

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by InsideOutSanta on Sunday August 04, 2024 @04:34AM (#41151993)
I wrote a book in 2010. It had a references section with links to about 100 websites. When I wrote the second edition only about five years later, 50% of those links no longer worked.

What we're doing right now is borderline insane. We're putting all of this information on the web, but almost each individual bit of information is dependent on either a company or a human being keeping it online. It's inevitable that companies change their minds, and humans die, so almost all of the information that is online right now will just disappear in the next 80 years.

And we essentially only have one single entity that tries to retain that information.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by throwaway48476 on Sunday August 04, 2024 @06:19AM (#41152467)
That entity goes out of its way to hide information if you're friends with the owners.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by jazzyjackson on Sunday August 04, 2024 @10:35AM (#41153816)
All the more reason not to rely on it, hard to complain when no one else is willing to do what they do
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by walterbell on Sunday August 04, 2024 @10:52AM (#41153922)
> references section with links to about 100 websites.

Books deserve a github repo with PDF web archives of referenced links, the same way that Wikipedia mirrors the content of cited links.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by SirMaster on Sunday August 04, 2024 @12:06PM (#41154401)
But wouldn't that be a big waste if everyone who references the same thing is then keeping a copy of it.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by progbits on Sunday August 04, 2024 @12:14PM (#41154450)
Better many copies than none. References usually mean written text and maybe some figures, cost of storage is going down, we can afford the duplication.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by throwup238 on Sunday August 04, 2024 @12:28PM (#41154554)
One person’s waste is another person’s resilience.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by walterbell on Sunday August 04, 2024 @12:45PM (#41154703)
> big waste

Storage cost has fallen exponentially for decades, https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/the-price-of-comput...

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Sunday August 04, 2024 @05:29PM (#41156469)
> everyone who references the same thing is then keeping a copy of it.

... and it would serve as a form of redundancy, imitating the fungible nature of physical media: In order to cite the latest, copied, manuscript (for example) you needed to own a physical copy. They existence of these has enabled survival of works that would otherwise have been lost, or even reconstruction through ecdotics.-

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by JohnFen on Monday August 05, 2024 @12:50PM (#41163028)
Redundancy isn't really a waste.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by ekianjo on Sunday August 04, 2024 @11:43AM (#41154250)
certainly not GitHub
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by walterbell on Sunday August 04, 2024 @01:27PM (#41155043)
What would you recommend instead?
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Intralexical on Sunday August 04, 2024 @10:21PM (#41157654)
Copyright permitting, big QR code containing the plain text.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by InsideOutSanta on Monday August 05, 2024 @07:24AM (#41160150)
There are all kinds of publisher and legal issues. Trust me, I did my best.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by walterbell on Wednesday August 07, 2024 @03:04AM (#41178914)
Could Wikipedia or Archive.org offer references-as-a-service to book publishers for a small fee? They already have the infrastructure and legal cover.
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Sunday August 04, 2024 @11:12AM (#41154057)
> so almost all of the information that is online right now will just disappear in the next 80 years.

> And we essentially only have one single entity that tries to retain that information.

Will future ages find ours a dark age, a gap in their records, a void ...

... up until the point - if ever - where a sufficiently advanced solution for permanence is found and comes online?

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Intralexical on Sunday August 04, 2024 @10:23PM (#41157660)
> ... up until the point - if ever - where a sufficiently advanced solution for permanence is found and comes online?

Like the laser printer?

The cost of permanent, physical preservation is pennies. People just don't do it for most things. And it doesn't guarantee accessibility, which has hosting costs.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Monday August 05, 2024 @01:24PM (#41163354)
> Like the laser printer?

Sure. Whatever works.-

But I meant one that is systematically and systemically and widely used.-

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by JohnFen on Monday August 05, 2024 @12:51PM (#41163042)
> Will future ages find ours a dark age, a gap in their records, a void

I think this is a very likely future, yes.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Monday August 05, 2024 @01:21PM (#41163329)
Grim, indeed.-
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Tuesday August 06, 2024 @04:34AM (#41168874)
> wrote a book in 2010. It had a references section

Out of curiosity, may I ask what it was about?

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by makin on Sunday August 04, 2024 @04:35AM (#41151995)
Two big issues with Archive.org are that 1. it's a single point of failure, they don't encourage mirror sites to emerge, and 2. they keep using the "brand" to fight unwinnable battles like hosting books they don't own online, risking the whole endeavor.

I still appreciate it, but just imagine if it goes down due to a lawsuit. Now that Google no longer shows cached results, an entire historical record would be gone.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by medstrom on Sunday August 04, 2024 @07:03AM (#41152695)
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by makin on Sunday August 04, 2024 @07:26AM (#41152803)
If you check the issues, you'll learn this is not a supported project anymore (and honestly, it hardly worked even back then).
Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Bluestein on Sunday August 04, 2024 @11:16AM (#41154080)
> Now that Google no longer shows cached results,

That was also the "end of an era" of sorts right there.-

> they don't encourage mirror sites to emerge,

Something over BitTorrent or blockchain would work well here, methinks. As a baseline substrate.-

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by stateofinquiry on Sunday August 04, 2024 @12:26PM (#41154542)
Its surprising that archive.org is the only such outfit I have encountered. Just like we have had libraries since ancient times, why are there so few digital libraries? There must be others, but nowhere near the number (or awareness) that we should have.

Heck, existing paper-based libraries should probably each include a digital archiving department.

Maybe this is already happening or already exists, and is trivial to those studying library science or something. I can hope, anyway.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by walterbell on Sunday August 04, 2024 @12:47PM (#41154722)
Excellent question.

Local neighborhood libraries could have their own curated digital archive, as cache for fast local search, and archival backup for long-term resilience.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Intralexical on Sunday August 04, 2024 @10:29PM (#41157682)
There are lots of web archiving projects out there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Web_archiving_initiati...

But the web is large. And public sector or academic librarian teams tend to be small. The IA's the one that people have coalesced around.

Re:To preserve their work journalists take archiving into th... by Intralexical on Sunday August 04, 2024 @10:29PM (#41157680)
> I still appreciate it, but just imagine if it goes down due to a lawsuit. Now that Google no longer shows cached results, an entire historical record would be gone.

Or somebody accidentally `rm -rf`'s an empty variable. Or The Big One hits San Fran. Or somebody in crisis breaks in with a crowbar, matchbook, and jug of gasoline.

They're a rather old-school shop. Own their own servers, all in one location I think. Bare metal admin stuff, and data's only mirrored across two disks per file IIRC. Keeps costs down. It's what makes the whole operation possible. But I also wonder sometimes.