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Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @03:14AM (#41076484)
To be fair, it's not just the phones. It's that we've been conditioned for instant gratification over many years (most of our adult lives if we're millennials) and this extends to knowing someone is OK. There's no more 'simply trusting that all is well, because there’s nothing else you can do' until that's the only option, and that's when worry can creep in.

As it says, 'phones stop that [trusting everything is ok] from happening. Instead of getting accustomed to being out of touch for a while, now we are always able to be in touch.'

But I think at the same time, we're all so aware of the fragility of life so much more. My parent's generation seemed to not care at all, trusting that bad things can't happen to us. My generation, I feel, are aware that they can, and do. So we try to optimise to avoid it, to mitigate it, reduce the attack vectors.

Is the world different now too? In the UK, you're never far from someone with a knife and an attitude problem. You know not to argue or protest, to intervene or become involved in anything, for fear of someone with a 'zombie' knife attacking you, and the problem is kids are more mixed, not yet sorted into their social bands as we adults are. So your nice to do child might be mixing with a zombie knife carrier which increases the probability that something could go horrible wrong.

And the above is just one example of how people are thinking ahead, but multiply this by several different potential areas of concern and yes, you have a parent that worries.

But was it better to have parents that didn't seem to care?

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by snickerer on Friday July 26, 2024 @03:38AM (#41076598)
I immediately wanted to answer: you are wrong about the violent knife guys, that's only a feeling, look at the statistics, the crime rate in UK is decreasing like everywhere else.

Then I looked for the link to support my argument. OMG, statista says that the violence rate is skyrocketing since 2015, at least in England and Wales. This is not the case for other Western European countries.

Quite interesting! I try not to interprete these numbers, because I don't know the reasons behind them.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by weberer on Friday July 26, 2024 @03:48AM (#41076642)
>This is not the case for other Western European countries.

It is in some of them like Sweden for example.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by dotancohen on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:04AM (#41076733)
There is a very strong correlation between two factors here, one of them being violent crime, that Western Europeans are very hesitant to acknowledge.

Sweden is well known for having high levels of this other factor right now, so your observation about violent crime is not surprising.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by maccard on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:14AM (#41076775)
You’re talking about poverty, right? Because that’s what the driver in knife crime is in the UK.

Keep your dog whistle and racism out of here.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lupusreal on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:22AM (#41076823)
I've been poor, flat broke for years in fact, but I've never felt any compulsion to stab some stranger on the street. Can you explain the mechanism linking poverty to murderous impulse?
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by maccard on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:35AM (#41077146)
The other replies have an excellent example in Poland. To respond to your anecdote - that’s not how statistics works. It doesn’t mean that everyone under a certain criteria will immediately stab someone. You can have privileged women [0] perform these acts too.

[0] https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/sep/25/oxford-student-l...

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lupusreal on Friday July 26, 2024 @09:33AM (#41078515)
The best you might have is a correlation between poverty and being homicidal, but you don't have any causal mechanism from poverty to homicidal because there isn't one.
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by revert_to_test on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:57AM (#41076973)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7234816/

Also, private observation : Poland was relatively safe country during communist rule, although everyone was very poor. Then '90s happened, income disparity went through the roof, unemployment skyrocketed, and you could be greeted on the street by a group of young gentlemen asking you for your possessions, not to mention extreme gang violence and fights between hooligans.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by CalRobert on Friday July 26, 2024 @07:14AM (#41077658)
How does housing availability compare to the Soviet era?
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by blackeyeblitzar on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:30AM (#41076858)
Assuming it is just poverty and not other factors as well, including cultural issues in some communities, feels naive to me. For example in the US, crime is not evenly distributed across races even if you adjust for poverty rates. There are other factors involved.

I also simply don’t understand what you’re implying from your comment - that being poor explains attempts at murder? I don’t believe that. I think it’s not having the right morals and culture, and those root causes should be discussed honestly even if it is uncomfortable.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by maccard on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:39AM (#41077171)
I did not say that being poor explains attempts at murder, or anything of the sort. If you’re going to engage in that sort of discussion where you straw man, I’m not going to engage with it
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lelanthran on Friday July 26, 2024 @06:51AM (#41077541)
> I did not say that being poor explains attempts at murder, or anything of the sort.

How else is a person supposed to interpret these words of yours? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41076775

>>> You’re talking about poverty, right? Because that’s what the driver in knife crime is in the UK.

What is the other interpretation you had in mind? Why not simply say it?

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by zht on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:16AM (#41076781)
Could you elaborate?
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by CalRobert on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:09AM (#41077033)
They mean immigration
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:18AM (#41077073)
I think we should be able to talk about it here. It shouldn't be a taboo subject where we fear pointing out correlation between immigration and poverty, and poverty and crime, links immigration and crime. Increase poverty and you increase crime. Increase immigration and you increase poverty. Therefore...?

So long as we're objective about this and leave tabloid mentality for Reddit and Twitter (...ok, X)

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by CalRobert on Friday July 26, 2024 @07:12AM (#41077649)
I agree, but it is a topic that tends to lead to unkind discourse, for reasons I’m not really qualified to elaborate on. I have no idea what the real situation, or possible answers, are.

Of course, I’m an immigrant, so…_shrug_

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by Propelloni on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:32AM (#41076870)
Around here (Western Europe) violent crimes trigger fear and outrage, they make the news circuit for days, and many a politician demands stricter laws. They are certainly acknowledged!

If you (or anybody, really) files a charge with the police you can bet good money on the fact that it enters the statistics. For all the faults of modern bureaucracy, being sloppy is not one of them. They may be ineffectual but the paperwork is in order!

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by Rinzler89 on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:08AM (#41076749)
Or in London too. You're safer in Prague or Budapest than in many parts of London.
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by jdietrich on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:45AM (#41077217)
Not coincidentally, we saw massive cuts to the policing and criminal justice budgets in the years after 2010. Prisons are 99% full, the prosecution and probation services are overwhelmed, there's a two-year backlog of court cases and thousands of experienced police officers were replaced with cheaper new recruits.

It would be an exaggeration to say that Britain has descended into lawlessness, but not a vast exaggeration. A great deal of crime is simply being ignored, because there aren't the resources in the system to investigate or prosecute it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crg5vp0296eo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60071691

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by mschuster91 on Friday July 26, 2024 @03:17AM (#41076505)
> It's that we've been conditioned for instant gratification over many years (most of our adult lives if we're millennials) and this extends to knowing someone is OK. There's no more 'simply trusting that all is well, because there’s nothing else you can do' until that's the only option, and that's when worry can creep in.

The problem at the core is that we rapidly went from high-trust societies where you could literally leave your door unlocked or even open so the cat could have free dominance over the local bird population and nothing would happen to a low/zero-trust society where you have to fear even a locked door isn't a guarantee that some crackhead didn't break in to get something to pawn for their next hit.

And to be very clear: more police, deporting migrants or whatnot else that conservatives/far right reliably preach as a "solution" will not help, because the root cause is widespread poverty and income and wealth inequality, nothing else.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by inglor_cz on Friday July 26, 2024 @03:35AM (#41076587)
"the root cause is widespread poverty and income and wealth inequality, nothing else"

That sounds like article of faith. The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society? What about other poorer European countries? In a cross-border comparison, there is no obvious strong correlation between the parameters you mention and violent crime, how could there be a causal relationship then?

And if we limit ourselves to the US, what about crime development in time? It certainly didn't rise and fall in lockstep with poverty, income and wealth inequality, not even in the last decades.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by mattgperry on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:03AM (#41076731)
The UK has been described as an Eastern European economy with London bolted on. Poverty is very obviously increasing there, for anyone familiar with the country.
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by inglor_cz on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:09AM (#41076756)
Come visit us in Eastern Europe and see for yourself that a lower income doesn't equal to "people behaving like wolves".

My grandpa grew up without electricity in his home, seven people in a single wooden hut. He was always a kind old man, even though a bit of a drunkard.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @06:25AM (#41077449)
I don't think we can isolate any one variable.

Poverty does tend to correlate to crime, but poverty never exists in a vacuum. Population density probably has a greater bearing on crime, and poverty and population tend to go hand in hand in metropolitan areas.

If you have an area that is poor but has few people, there'll probably be less crime, as less people means it's easier to track each person socially, and thus there's more accountability.

I'm sure there are studies that show optimal 'tribe' sizes, and I know from experience how different orgs can be from small teams to large teams, so it stands to reason that the key driver is probably population density.

we have to differentiate between 'low level' crime and 'high level' crime, e.g. fraud, financial crime, all of those super-rich organised crime

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by pydry on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:06AM (#41076741)
>That sounds like article of faith. The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society?

From WW1 until about 1975, no it was getting less stratified. The upper classes famously had to relinquish their country houses because they couldn't afford to maintain them and the middle classes grew.

It wasn't until neoliberalism took a foothold under Thatcher that social stratification started to grow again.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by mschuster91 on Friday July 26, 2024 @03:59AM (#41076713)
> The GP is speaking about the UK - wasn't it always a very socially stratified society?

It got way worse during the Thatcher years and especially following them, with the formerly mighty heavy industry all but collapsing, and the Brexiteers made heavy bank on that. The aftershock of first Covid and then Ukraine with the gas price and general inflation was yet another heavy blow.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by inglor_cz on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:08AM (#41076754)
I live in a Czech city where the formerly mighty heavy industry collapsed spectacularly, after decades of being propped up by the previous regime for ideological reasons.

Knifings are still pretty rare here. I have met and lived with plenty of poor people and mere material precariousness won't remake one into a callous psychopath who behaves like a violent predator.

Drugs will, though. Frying the brain, as they say.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by pjc50 on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:22AM (#41077088)
Bit of both, really. Do not fall for the illusion of a golden age. Overall violence peaked in the middle of the 20th century and has been gradually falling.

The approach that does: https://www.svru.co.uk/ / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Reduction_Unit

You need both carrot and stick, and you need the police to target people who are doing crime and not target people who are not doing crime.

Media distortion driving fear is a whole other category of problem.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @06:22AM (#41077431)
I agree. That's a very good point. There isn't the same level of community spirit here in the UK that there was 60-80 years ago. Things change, and I'm sure population is a significant variable in the equation, but not the only one.

If we go out to rural areas, we'll probably find more neighbourly behaviour than we will in inner cities. Poverty, population density, economic status, and more. These all play a factor.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by fxtentacle on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:50AM (#41076943)
It's almost as if showing young people lots of movies where people murder other people who move weirdly (the zombies) might lead to kids imitating this behaviour.

And I'm pretty sure this perfectly correlates with poverty. Both parents working means the kids are at home without supervision and with unlimited access to the TV and streaming services. In my childhood, it was still pretty easy to see that zombies were a movie invention, but with modern CGI, I can't tell the difference anymore.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @06:15AM (#41077402)
I'm not sure about the first point. I grew up watching zombie films, playing resident evil, all those games, and have no feelings of going out and doing it to actual people.

Yes, graphics were worse when we grew up (assuming same rough age) but we still looked at them and said "Wow so realistic!" so I don't think that the issue is that people now see realistic zombie films and think, great, I'll go stab someone on the bus for disagreeing with me.

I think its more the case that people are living in dangerous neighbourhoods, so they carry a knife for protection and are amped up ready to use it and so at the first sign of confrontation, they do. What used to be a fist fight is now a knife fight. What used to be a sore head is now a dead body.

But, I do agree with the poverty link. I grew up in poverty, I saw the lifestyle, the way people act, the way they aren't raised by their parents. It's been this way for thousands of years. It'll never change.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lupusreal on Friday July 26, 2024 @04:56AM (#41076967)
The link between zombie movies and people stabbing each other with ""zombie knives"" (which I've never seen featured in zombie movies...) seems extremely dubious. I don't think these stabbings are caused by people acting out things they saw in movies.
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by chiefalchemist on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:25AM (#41077102)
> So we try to optimise to avoid it, to mitigate it, reduce the attack vectors.

So we evolved to create a device / technology that creates expectations and an environment that are entirely counter to our evolutionary upbringing?

We now expect to stop what is impossible to stop (i.e., life)?

And we can't stop ourselves to stop wanting to stop that thing (again, life)?

And we've normalized and culturalized all this to the point that we blame the device and anyone but ourselves for our own decisions and actions?

Surveillance Capitalism... is a certified success.

p.s..Parents have / did care. But they generally didn't feed an unhealthy paradigm. They had a reasonable sense of what mattered, when, and why. Their foundation was trust, not fear; and often they had faith (which is something the paradigm has convinced so many they don't need).

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by jajko on Friday July 26, 2024 @05:50AM (#41077242)
Nope. Previous generation didn't care? Thats properly insulting to whole generation, maybe its your situation and I am sorry in such case, but please stop making such wrong accusations.

Death was around, from time to time some kid would die - hit by car, fell down something, got sick etc. If anything parents were more resistant to suffering, just sucked it up and moved, they didn't have this 'every life is precious' attitude. They also didn't know that well to talk about their emotions or even process them effectively, so just bottled them up and continued.

Its up to each of us to create for our kids environments we want them to raise in. You are a control freak or helicopter parent? Well there will be consequences. You run in cca full trust mode with your kids and just manage things like healthy food, tons of physical activities, a lot of time spent in wild nature and let them figure the rest? They can have it too, but some trust into them not killing themselves is required. You don't like the place you live in? Change it if you can or leave it otherwise, world is big and plenty of good places to spend rest of your life in.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @06:18AM (#41077414)
Apologies if it upset you, not my intention, but the prevailing feeling (in the UK at least, and these are UK HN hours) is that Gen X were quite absent parents for the most part. They weren't as strict as TGG or Boomers, but weren't as switched on and present as Millennials.

> they didn't have this 'every life is precious' attitude

> Previous generation didn't care

Allow me to make one small change then

    - Previous generation didn't care
    + Previous generation didn't care as much
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lupusreal on Friday July 26, 2024 @09:38AM (#41078545)
> They also didn't know that well to talk about their emotions or even process them effectively, so just bottled them up and continued.

If that method of handling their emotions made them more resilient to hardship, then maybe it was the correct way after all.

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by jajko on Friday July 26, 2024 @10:08AM (#41078780)
The problems you don't even acknowledge are there won't ever be resolved nor addressed. Sure, you can keep ignoring them, but as life goes on the pile of stuff just sitting there that you constantly have to keep looking away from grows significantly. Not life I want to live, nor a parent I want to be.
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lupusreal on Saturday July 27, 2024 @04:34AM (#41085250)
If somebody's kid dies from polio or whatever, there's no solving that by talking about feelings. Scientists and doctors can make sure it doesn't happen again but we're talking about the way parents reacted, or didn't react, to trauma. If in fact they generally didn't talk about it and just soldiered on, that was an effective method of dealing with it. Better than spending years in therapy crying about it, as seems to be fashionable these days, which won't bring their kid back. And particularly, moving on without dwelling on the past seems better for the surviving children than the parents becoming overprotective (the thesis of this discussion, if I've understood it.)
Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by lelanthran on Friday July 26, 2024 @06:57AM (#41077571)
> My parent's generation seemed to not care at all, trusting that bad things can't happen to us.

I think that, as a not yet fully developed adult, you weren't exactly noticing that they did care.[1]

Think about it this way: remember all those times they stopped you from doing something stupid that would have hurt yourself? Yeah - that was them caring for your wellbeing.

[1] Fair enough, you say 'seemed to not care' and not 'did not care'

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by mysterydip on Friday July 26, 2024 @08:31AM (#41078069)
I think it's more the "the time is 9pm. do you know where your children are?" PSAs and such of the time, where kids were expected to be outdoors or on their own playing for extended periods of time.

ref: https://youtu.be/jBy9VDEWKOE?si=maH8tfgA35KF8osf

Re:How Phones Are Making Parents the Anxious Generation by imdsm on Friday July 26, 2024 @10:24AM (#41078894)
Unfortunately growing up in poverty, there weren't that many times they stopped us doing stupid things. I feel like it has given us street smarts, yet at the same time, I couldn't imagine doing the same to my children. Weak strong cycle perhaps.