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Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by chx on Monday July 01, 2024 @02:48PM (#40849028)
The problem is that official vs unofficial designation does not exist. The Supreme Court just invented it out of thin air. Further https://www.thenation.com/article/society/trump-immunity-sup...

> the court has left nearly no sphere in which the president can be said to be acting “unofficially.” And more importantly, the court has left virtually no vector of evidence that can be deployed against a president to prove that their acts were “unofficial.” If trying to overthrow the government is “official,” then what isn’t? And if we can’t use the evidence of what the president says or does, because communications with their advisers, other government officials, and the public is “official,” then how can we ever show that an act was taken “unofficially?”

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by ahmeneeroe-v2 on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:02PM (#40849237)
It's within the court's purview to invent new tests which lower courts can use to decide cases. That's the entire point of a landmark case.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by TimTheTinker on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:42PM (#40849779)
Agreed, this is a key function of interpreting the law.

If the people don't like a landmark case (i.e. the disagree with the interpretation), Congress can pass a new law. If a new law contradicts the court's opinion, the law takes precedence.

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by pseudalopex on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:52PM (#40849888)
> If the people don't like a landmark case (i.e. the disagree with the interpretation), Congress can pass a new law. If a new law contradicts the court's opinion, the law takes precedence.

Maybe.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory#Judic...

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by TimTheTinker on Monday July 01, 2024 @06:29PM (#40851517)
Right - constitutional interpretation is the one area where the court can overrule congressional law.

But even then, with enough agreement from the states, Congress can amend the Constitution.

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by ahmeneeroe-v2 on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:14PM (#40853233)
Exactly, this isn't a gotcha. This is one of the basic checks on Congress.

Congress can also impeach justices, which is one of their checks on the Judicial branch. They also have the authority to confirm the Executive's judicial nominees (one of their checks on the Executive).

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by chx on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:12PM (#40849383)
> while the Supreme Court says “unofficial” acts are still prosecutable, the court has left nearly no sphere in which the president can be said to be acting “unofficially.”
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by metabagel on Monday July 01, 2024 @05:05PM (#40850674)
But, they didn't invent any new tests here. Baseline, what they want to achieve is to stop the prosecution of Donald Trump in its tracks, and they'd like to use no more and no less overreach to achieve that. If it comes back to them, and they need to hammer harder, they will do that. But, the key goal is to protect Trump.

So, they can invent tests later, after they see how this decision affects the prosecution.

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by ahmeneeroe-v2 on Monday July 01, 2024 @05:48PM (#40851112)
If act = core constitutional power then absolute immunity elseif act = official then presumed immunity else no immunity end

how is that not a test?

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by chx on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @01:33PM (#40858781)
> the court has left nearly no sphere in which the president can be said to be acting “unofficially.” And more importantly, the court has left virtually no vector of evidence that can be deployed against a president to prove that their acts were “unofficial.”
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by sickofparadox on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:09PM (#40849349)
Judicial review didn't exist until the Supreme Court invented it out of thin air as well! Since the foundation of the country, we have allowed the SCOTUS a degree of legislation from the bench.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by chx on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:12PM (#40849385)
> while the Supreme Court says “unofficial” acts are still prosecutable, the court has left nearly no sphere in which the president can be said to be acting “unofficially.”
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by inglor_cz on Monday July 01, 2024 @02:54PM (#40849121)
Doesn't this difference exist de facto?

Trump murdering his business partner at a dinner because they had a fallout is pretty clearly unofficial, while Trump ordering assassination of the Tyrant of Ruritania is official, albeit probably immoral and/or dangerous to boot.

Of course the grey zone between those two poles is going to be pretty wide.

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by impalallama on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:05PM (#40849291)
The question becomes what if the President then uses their power to jail/execute political rivals? How would you rule that as unofficial? Tons of dictators jail rivals on the “official” business of maintaining order or peace or some other nebulous term. The presidents role to enforce law is so broad that it can be used to justify almost any act.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by Muromec on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:18PM (#40849462)
This, so much this. Nobody ever jails political opponents, obstructs justice and bullies media in their unofficial capacity. If there is immunity, it will be used to do all kinds of shticks.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by tomrod on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:58PM (#40849955)
Indeed. This feels much in line to the German Enabling Act of 1933.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by laidoffamazon on Monday July 01, 2024 @04:03PM (#40850016)
Critically, the former president was posting about how his political enemies should face military tribunals for treason yesterday
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by pseudalopex on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:22PM (#40849530)
> Trump murdering his business partner at a dinner because they had a fallout is pretty clearly unofficial

Why? The majority said In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives. Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law.[1]

[1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by chx on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:12PM (#40849394)
> there is also no way to prove it’s “unofficial,” because any conversation the president has with their military advisers (where, for instance, the president tells them why they want a particular person assassinated) is official and cannot be used against them.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by sfink on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:14PM (#40849411)
You listed two extremes to demonstrate the difference, which is fine, but what about the example of Trump encouraging insurrection? It seems just a teeny bit relevant here, given that it is what prompted the case in the first place. And insurrection is definitely related to governing, so you can't discard it from consideration just because it's nothing like murdering a business partner. He could claim that an illegal decision was about to be made and so he had to use his executive authority to counteract it. That sounds like an official duty to me.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by breadwinner on Monday July 01, 2024 @04:15PM (#40850152)
> He could claim that an illegal decision was about to be made

He doesn't even have to provide such a justification because the court has said the President's motives cannot be used to decide if it was official or unofficial.

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by robertoandred on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:00PM (#40849213)
Uh, you're missing the fact that his business partner is a danger to national security. The motives are irrelevant.
Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday July 01, 2024 @03:38PM (#40849725)
<< If trying to overthrow the government is “official,” then what isn’t?

It seems a lot is assumed in that one sentence. Did he give an order that said 'Overthrow!"? If not, what, exactly, did he do? And this may be a part of the issue. Everything is a hyperbole wrapped in performative anger.

In other words, can you name an action that you deem unofficial that would qualify as 'overthrow"?

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by tomrod on Monday July 01, 2024 @04:00PM (#40849992)
Elector conspiracy

Failing to execute his office by failing to defend the Capitol

Telling the Proud Boys to stand by rather than stand down

Encouraging a vitriolic crowd to take back their country and transferring blame to Pence, who was going to be in the Capitol performing his Senate duties.

---------------

There comes a time when we have look past the mob-boss-need-for-explicit wording schtick and recognize a space as a space.

Re:Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for offic... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday July 01, 2024 @04:38PM (#40850383)
<< Encouraging a vitriolic crowd to take back their country and transferring blame to Pence, who was going to be in the Capitol performing his Senate duties.

Yeah, I.. I think you will want to find a better example than what he actually said[1]

<< Failing to execute his office by failing to defend the Capitol

So a lack of an official act is an official act? This does not fall under what I asked for, but good try.

<< Elector conspiracy

You have something there, but you want something more concrete. What was his exact step that was NOT an official act in your view.

<< Telling the Proud Boys to stand by rather than stand down

You have something there, but again not much to go after unless you want to argue actions vs words.

<< There comes a time when we have look past the mob-boss-need-for-explicit wording schtick and recognize a space as a space.

Listen, rules exist for a reason. You break those rules and you deal with consequences of that break. If Trump did not break those rules and you think those rules do not meet the current needs, then you may want to change those rules, but arguing 'well, he is guilty of something' is a little silly and, frankly, against the very foundation of this country.

The funny thing is, you clearly recognize the 'exact wording' issue as an obstacle to put him away.

[1]https://www.wsj.com/video/trump-full-speech-at-dc-rally-on-j...