News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by giantg2 on Friday June 28, 2024 @07:59PM (#40826674)
But who needs to know what happens behind the facade of the services? It does everything for us!

I miss the days of having an expert sys admin and DBA to help with tough issues. Now we're all on our own with no training. Most of the good people got axed or thrown into other roles. Becoming good at something only to have it thrown away and undervalued pisses me off.

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by nineteen999 on Friday June 28, 2024 @08:09PM (#40826731)
I'm one of those old sysadmins/DBA's, and having worked in devops for a year or two a few years back, I was able to take the best parts of it that I found useful, and leave the rest for the internet widget crowd to bicker about on here and in the workplace.

I brought CI/CD, automated deployments, and infra tests with me to what was a very "retro" non-cloud UNIX style environment. I left all the horseshit (kanban, retrospectives, scrum) for the others that are not really all that interested in actually getting shit done. While those guys had a bunch of shiny tools to play with all day long, they lacked basic UNIX skills that us old guys have, and you had to continually had to show them how it was done.

The results speak for themselves. Couldn't be happier (or more securely employed) at this stage of my life.

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by giantg2 on Friday June 28, 2024 @08:12PM (#40826752)
That's great. When my company axed the Ops people, they didn't move them onto dev teams (some did, but very few). So we ended up with DevOps teams that were whole Dev experience. The Ops part was supposed to be "easy" with AWS. It was completely a cost saving play at my company by throwing more responsibility on the existing dev - combine roles and reduce headcount.
Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by altdataseller on Friday June 28, 2024 @08:42PM (#40826919)
What sort of skills does a sysadmin and DBA have that most engineers lack? Most engineers should know the basics of bash scripting, iptables, Unix logging, cron, systemd, etc. as well as SQL, debugging slow queries, optimizing them, backing up dbs, etc
Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by wild_egg on Friday June 28, 2024 @08:52PM (#40826975)
_should_ know is different than _do_ know. Most engineers have little to no understanding of those systems topics and the only DB knowledge they've picked up is what leaks through their ORM

A person who competently knows all those topics _and_ how to write application code is worth their weight in gold

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by sgarland on Saturday June 29, 2024 @09:16AM (#40830273)
> A person who competently knows all those topics _and_ how to write application code is worth their weight in gold

IFF the company consistently values those skills. IME, they’ll say upon interviewing or hiring that those aren’t necessary for their workload, until they suddenly are, where you’re lauded as a hero. Predictably, the memory of hero status fades when promo season comes around, because those “aren’t core skillsets,” or something similar.

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by giantg2 on Saturday June 29, 2024 @12:24PM (#40831650)
'fades when promo season comes around, because those “aren’t core skillsets,” or something similar.'

Exactly what I'm going through right now with a potential PIP. Last year I was told there was a solid basis for me being the getting the highest rating, but only if my core work was faster. Now they want to PIP me like nothing else I contribute to matters.

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by sgarland on Saturday June 29, 2024 @02:29PM (#40832522)
I’m very sorry. I quit a job once because they couldn’t follow their own rubric for promos.

“We’ve written down objective guidelines for what constitutes your relative performance.”

“Great, looks like I’m a shoe-in.”

“Well… there are intangibles.”

“Then why have the rubric?”

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by giantg2 on Saturday June 29, 2024 @09:03PM (#40834422)
Yep. The speed issue they are pulling is an area that doesn't have any objective standards. So I ran a JIRA query to see how I stacked up against the other person who was my level on the team. We completed almost the same number of points over the course of this year...
Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by sgarland on Saturday June 29, 2024 @09:13AM (#40830251)
> basics of bash scripting…

Bash alone has a million footguns. If you know to use shellcheck you can probably survive those, and if you read the bash manual in its entirety you’ll almost certainly be well on your way to greatness, but getting devs to read docs – let alone boring, Web1.0 docs, is stretch.

> basics of SQL…

Have you seen the knobs Postgres and MySQL have to turn? Do you know what they all do, when you should turn them, and by how much?

The documentation for both of these is enormous and highly detailed, yet in no way covers everything that can and will go wrong. You only find those things out by using it day in and day out.

As to SQL itself, “I can do inner joins” is about as complex as I’ve seen most devs do. Hell, mention a semijoin and you’ll get blank stares.

I think in general, you’re grossly overestimating the average developer’s knowledge breadth and desire to learn these things. They simply do not matter for most, because tooling exists such that most of the time, they don’t need to know. I consider myself decent at Linux and RDBMS, but that’s mostly because I genuinely enjoy both, play with them in my off-time, and have been running Linux in some form or fashion for the last 20+ years. Also, of course, my work specializations (SRE —> DBRE) have helped.

Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by sadops on Sunday June 30, 2024 @07:42PM (#40841364)
I guess nobody is going to say it? Fine, I'll say it: this is what ruthless cost-cutting gets us. But it's fine, I'm sure the stock buybacks are going so well for all involved.
Re:A Eulogy for DevOps by sadops on Monday July 01, 2024 @10:18AM (#40846061)
Fine, I'll say it: this is what ruthless cost-cutting gets us. But it's fine, I'm sure the stock buybacks are going so well for all involved.