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Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by freejazz on Friday June 28, 2024 @07:20PM (#40826386)
And wouldn't this court still take this kind of challenge on constitutional grounds? That congress has no power to give legislative authority to an executive agency?
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by jtbayly on Friday June 28, 2024 @08:35PM (#40826876)
I assume so, as they should, since the constitution forbids it. This was the whole point of the separation of powers.

If Congress thinks they shouldn’t have to do the work of legislation, then they can all quit and we can elect people who are willing to do the job we elect them to do.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by philipov on Friday June 28, 2024 @09:12PM (#40827081)
You know, maybe it's time to overturn Marbury v. Madison. An originalist like Alito should have no problem admitting that the constitution never granted the court these powers in the first place.

What's that I hear you say, he won't do it because it would hamper him personally? Well, bless his heart!

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by throwup238 on Friday June 28, 2024 @10:45PM (#40827516)
Alito is as much an originalist as he is a vampire squid.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by philipov on Friday June 28, 2024 @11:44PM (#40827742)
I am likely to believe he is one of those. Guess which one.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by throwup238 on Saturday June 29, 2024 @12:05AM (#40827819)
Definitely the vampire squid.

SCOUTS hasn't had a real originalist in like 200 years.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by philipov on Saturday June 29, 2024 @01:08AM (#40828013)
You know something the Constitution doesn't say? It doesn't say that you should only interpret the Constitution based on what it says. Therefore, the originalist position is self-contradictory, because it's not contained in the Constitution.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by dudeinjapan on Saturday June 29, 2024 @01:33AM (#40828099)
> …the Constitution doesn't say… that you should only interpret the Constitution based on what it says.

So we should interpret it based on the things it doesn’t say?

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by philipov on Saturday June 29, 2024 @09:24AM (#40830317)
The problem with interpreting the Constitution is that a lot of things are left unsaid or undefined. There is a wealth of writing outside the Constitution that helps clarify what was intended when the text of the Constitution is ambiguous, such as the Federalist Papers.

Alito's originalist position is that he can reject using such contemporary sources, that he can reject all precedent, and interpret the ambiguous portions of the Constitution however he wants.

---

Incidentally, one of the clear intentions of the framers of the Constitution was that the future should not be chained to the tyranny of the past. This sentiment was pervasive in the Revolutionary era. It was intended that future generations would need to make the document work for their own times, and not constantly be second guessing what the deific Founders said. Check out the writings of Madison or Adams or Jefferson or Franklin sometime. They did not want to be deified.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by dudeinjapan on Sunday June 30, 2024 @08:24PM (#40841543)
Alito said "[the Constitution] means what people would have understood it to mean at the time it was written." One can certainly accuse Alito of cynically ascribing modern Republican party politics to the framers, but I don't see a "smoking gun" here.

To paraphrase his opinion on Dobbs, ex facto the Constitution grants neither an explicit right nor prohibition to abortion--the framers saw it as a legal "gray area" to give a liberal reading of history--so following the 10th amendment, any regulation of abortion should be devolved to the states. Perhaps it is better if abortion were nationally legalized, but Alito's opinion seems reasonable if we are following the rules to the letter.

Re: the Founders, they do not write about the "tyranny of the past" nearly as much as they write about plain ol' "tyranny" of living govts--maybe the closest is Federalist No. 14 or Thomas Jefferson's 1816 letter to Samuel Kercheval "We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." Conversely, we can find tons of examples of the Founders being inspired by classical/traditional sources e.g. Greek (Plato, Aristotle, Plutarch), Roman Cicero, Polybius), the bible, English Common Law etc. It is clear the Founders were neither iconoclasts nor Trotsky-style "Permanent Revolutionaries."

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by giardini on Saturday June 29, 2024 @12:31AM (#40827881)
>"You know, maybe it's time to overturn Marbury v. Madison."<

"Why, the very idea..."

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by cryptonector on Saturday June 29, 2024 @01:32AM (#40828097)
Under this court's approach the interpretations of the constitution from around the time of adoption of it count as strong evidence for its meaning today. So this approach would not work for you.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by cryptonector on Saturday June 29, 2024 @01:34AM (#40828102)
The Iron Law of Bureaucracy says that the court would never reverse Marbury.

Plus Marbury is too inside baseball for it to get reversed via constitutional amendment.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by spurgu on Saturday June 29, 2024 @08:57AM (#40830137)
Who would then make sure that laws are constitutional?
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by krapp on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @12:32PM (#40867576)
Any power not explicitly granted the Federal government in the Constitution devolves to individual states, so each state would have the power to decide constitutionality as a matter of state law.

If we're going by a strictly textualist interpretation of the Constitution then this is the only valid option, barring a Constitutional Amendment to actually give the power of judicial review to the Supreme Court.

Is it absurd and insane? Yes. But so is determining law by in essence conjuring the ghosts of dead men.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by rayiner on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:26AM (#40837063)
> You know, maybe it's time to overturn Marbury v. Madison

You mean the precedent liberals used to completely and un-democratically reshape the American republic in the mid-20th century—everything from taking religion out of schools to deciding that towns couldn’t shut down strip clubs “because free speech?”

Conservatives will 100% take you up on overturning Marbury.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by Gibbon1 on Saturday June 29, 2024 @12:14AM (#40827844)
If congress doesn't like how federal agencies implement the law they are free to pass laws to clarify their intent. They don't need unelected and unaccountable Justices to do that for them.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by jtbayly on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:32AM (#40829577)
The whole point of courts is to be the place of judgment as to whether a law is actually being violated or not.

Let’s try it like this: “If Congress doesn’t like how police implement the law they are free to pass laws to clarify their intent. They don't need unelected and unaccountable Justices to do that for them.“

The whole problem is that without that branch of separated power, the police/federal agencies can do whatever they want, regardless of what the law says. Congress could pass new laws every year that say things like “No, we really meant it, police can’t randomly arrest people and keep them in jail forever.” But there wouldn’t be any way to judge whether they are doing that.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by SubiculumCode on Saturday June 29, 2024 @12:01AM (#40827808)
Unless the world turns to 1s and 0's, execution of a law will always in part depend on interpretation of the law by the executor. To pretend otherwise is to mistake ideals for reality.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by jtbayly on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:38AM (#40829616)
Who is pretending otherwise?

Also, when those executors of the law are determined to be the sole arbiters of what the law means without any appeal or restraint, then the “they are experts” ideal has been mistaken for reality.

Imagine if the courts deferred to the police way more, because they are experts on what “crime” really is and know what the written law should be interpreted to mean. Oh, and let the police be the judges and run their own courts, too.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by underlipton on Friday June 28, 2024 @09:03PM (#40827042)
And I suppose that soldiers who are in the middle of combat shouldn't be able to choose where to point their rifles without congressional approval? Do we need a bill for each new weapons system, since their procurement and use won't have been specifically called for in statute? Etc.
Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by jtbayly on Friday June 28, 2024 @09:19PM (#40827128)
Congress already decides how much to spend and on what weapons systems for the various branches of the military.

Meanwhile, you need to brush up on your civics knowledge. The authority to command the armed forces is directly under the executive, which is why the President is the “Commander in Chief.”

In other words, these are not problems, either in the real world way things work (like the EPA has problems now after this decision) or in a constitutional sense.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by jordanb on Friday June 28, 2024 @11:28PM (#40827678)
> Congress already decides how much to spend and on what weapons systems for the various branches of the military.

Congress directs some times and defers other times. Congress absolutely does not direct every pentagon spending program.

> The authority to command the armed forces is directly under the executive

The EPA is an "executive department" as described by article two of the constitution the same as the department of defense. If the founders expected congress alone to execute executive authority (except in the special case of the military) then the constitution would have been written that way and the EPA would have been created as a body that reports to congress. Congress was obeying the constitution when they created the EPA under the president, just as they were when they created every other executive department.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by jtbayly on Saturday June 29, 2024 @07:50AM (#40829703)
My argument is that we have been lax with the separation of powers. Congress is required to declare war before the President can direct the armed forces into combat, for example. This has failed recently. Congress also must not declare a permanent generic war, and then leave it up the the executive branch free to do whatever it wants with the military. Or, if they declare war on French Guiana, that doesn’t give the president freedom to attack Georgia.

The argument is not that the EPA should report to Congress instead of the President. The argument is that the EPA should be limited to doing what the laws Congress passed actually says. It is the executive branch’s responsibility to implement the law, not create, implement, and judge cases like they have been doing.

Re:Supreme Court guts agency power in seismic Chevron ruling by anon373839 on Saturday June 29, 2024 @12:39AM (#40827908)
You're completely right; my thought experiment was half-baked. A challenge to an agency's use of delegated power is necessarily a constitutional challenge. So, unless Marbury were overturned, this wouldn't fly.