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Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by banish-m4 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @01:17AM (#40694853)
Nice project and good work.

The only thing is it doesn't address a new or existing market as-is because it competes with what already exists. For example, a TrendNet 10/100 compact switch (not a hub) goes for $7.31 including shipping on eBay and it comes with a case and a power supply. Decommodifying a product requires finding niches where there is demand like automotive, aerospace, military, or marine applications. Until roughly 2020, 2.88 MB 3.5" floppy drives were in-use primarily in industrial and turnkey commercial systems long after they disappeared from desktop computers. Dinosaur technologies can live on for a very long time, often in critical systems deemed too expensive to replace.

Keep pushing forward, learning, and getting better.

Btw, if someone made a:

- 48 port 10GBASE-T (802.3an-2006) POE++ (IEEE 802.3bt-2018) 960W-1600W+ (3422W would be the upper limit for type 4)

- L2 (at least) switch

- unmanaged to fully-managed (but no cloud features)

- 4 100GBASE QSFP28 uplinks (unpopulated)

- dual, hot-swappable PSUs

- 2 models: Ports facing either forward or reverse

- 19" 1U half rack depth, and wall mountable

- Most importantly: doesn't sound like a jet engine under full load by leveraging better engineering, such as using some industrial-rated parts, heatpipes, and moving hotter air but less volume

I'd throw down in the $6K price-point neighborhood.

Comparables:

$4800 FS S5860-48XMG-U is close but sounds like a jet engine with dual 1U screaming PSUs and 3 hot swap chassis fans, but only available in conventional top-of-rack forward facing, leading to longer, messier wire management unnecessarily.

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by numpad0 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:44AM (#40695144)
This isn't a desktop Ethernet switch. Lots of robotic parts like industrial cameras and fancy laser sensors use Ethernet for interfacing instead of USB or RS232C. Doing so solves cable length limitations and connection stability issues of those peripheral buses. There would be penalties and overheads of (mis?)using inter-node communication protocols like Ethernet (and TCP/IP), but those tradeoffs are completely acceptable.

What is not acceptable is full sized switches inside of a robot: they're way too bulky. You may be looking into installing a switch inside a humanoid upper arm or inside pelvis. Regular switches and hubs don't fit there.

This product solves that specific robotics packaging problem. Electrically it's a switch/hub, physically it's much smaller than that, that's the point.

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by globular-toast on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:25AM (#40695308)
I wonder if you could do away with the switch and just daisy chain in many of those applications. It seems to be forgotten that ethernet supports this.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by varjag on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:35AM (#40695346)
It's not exactly forgotten. There's 2 wire Ethernet/PoE standard (used mostly in automotive) that can be daisy-chained. Designing for it however is non-trivial and few third party devices (again outside automotive market) support it.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by globular-toast on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:50AM (#40695411)
Hmm... I thought everything still had collision detection and would work on a bus, like what you'd get using a hub.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by varjag on Sunday June 16, 2024 @05:01AM (#40695683)
There is normally no collision detection beyond 10Mbps. Also PoE would not trivially work daisy chained.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by toast0 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:03PM (#40698911)
100base-Tx is specified for shared media (hub rather than switch), but I think you need some electronics to make a hub, you can't just do a passive connection, and so you probably end up with a hub IC and may as well use a switch IC instead.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by sgtnoodle on Sunday June 16, 2024 @09:54AM (#40697096)
It might work in so far as you'll get packets through. The performance would be abysmal, though. Modern Ethernet is built around switching.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by globular-toast on Sunday June 16, 2024 @11:40AM (#40697845)
Would it really be that bad? If the devices were well behaved (ie. not too noisy, no gratuitous ARP etc) and the application could assume that most of the time either zero or no devices will be communicating, would it be that bad?

This is something I might test myself. I have a couple of audio devices that will never be both "active" at the same time. In my current layout I need to run either two cables or just another switch and it just seems a waste. I wonder if I can buy daisy chained cable so I don't have to make one...

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by wal5hy on Sunday June 16, 2024 @07:08AM (#40696175)
Our company is often asked at expos if we supply 2 wire ethernet switches (e.g. Single Pair Ethernet SPE[1]) but the reality is there's little demand (outside of automotive) we see in the Industrial marketplace for this type of product.

The other issue is that there is at least 2 competing industrial connector standards for SPE, the main ones being from Harting[2] and Phoenix Contact[3]. I think this could be a great option for the future and ultimately lead to lower cost cabling and smaller products.

[1] https://www.single-pair-ethernet.com/en

[2] https://images.app.goo.gl/ND9d9x66YNUckS7g6

[3] https://images.app.goo.gl/yWAiUAx4Y5vRmmbZA

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by varjag on Sunday June 16, 2024 @07:50AM (#40696372)
Yeah that's the thing: neither of them is really standard, and both are fairly expensive. They are also available in very limited mechanical configurations (angle, mounting). Fortunately SPE does not really require either of them. In our product we're going with our own solution.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by lostlogin on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:53PM (#40699205)
> Our company is often asked at expos if we supply 2 wire ethernet switches (e.g. Single Pair Ethernet SPE[1]) but the reality is there's little demand

This reminds me of a funny conversation I had in a small town stationers when looking for an item.

‘No, we don’t stock it. People keep asking, and I keep having to explain that there is no demand.’

Though this wasn’t for an obscure Ethernet variant.

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by wal5hy on Sunday June 16, 2024 @06:25PM (#40700627)
ha, true! However at expos often the person asking is a vendor looking to sell SPE components to us, or someone in the industry trying to determine if a technology is popular. Can be a bit of an echo chamber.
Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by p_l on Sunday June 16, 2024 @05:24AM (#40695777)
In industrial IO, including robotics, the norm these days is 3 port switches embedded into devices, specifically to support daisy chaining.

Hubs are no-no because of various performance issues, including how more and more gear supports gigabit on the daisy chaining.

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by userbinator on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:11AM (#40695016)
For example, a TrendNet 10/100 compact switch (not a hub) goes for $7.31 including shipping on eBay and it comes with a case and a power supply

A 1G switch from Ali with a case, power supply, and the RJ45 connectors is also under $10.

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by gertrunde on Sunday June 16, 2024 @07:09AM (#40696182)
I suspect the combination of being able to dissipate 3.4kW of power, and the requested size and noise constraints may put this combination of features firmly beyond reasonable, even before considering cost.

But there is always room to hope. :)

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by crote on Sunday June 16, 2024 @10:30AM (#40697349)
A PoE-supplying switch doesn't need to dissipate that power. Assuming a power supply efficiency of 85%, supplying 3400W to downstream devices means having to dissipate 600W of heat.

Keep in mind that you'd be supplying 71W to every single downstream port. That's an insane amount of power. Something like a Cisco Catalyst 9136I Access Point only comes up to 47W, and that's assuming 16 radios, double 5Gbit uplinks, and a USB device drawing 9W.

Re:Show HN: We Made The World's Smallest and Cheapest Networ... by mike_d on Sunday June 16, 2024 @04:22PM (#40699801)
A Juniper EX4100 ticks all your boxes.

Adding a sound requirement is stupid and ridiculous. You're wanting to take the power supplies from 48 90W devices and put them all in one dense little box and then complaining that it needs to be cool.

If you have room for 48 PoE devices, you have room for a properly cooled and sound isoloated IDF.