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Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by Gibbon1 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:25PM (#40548800)
When it comes to transit I think the lol make driving sucky so people will support mass transit is inane because of the backlash potential. Much better to get ahead of the hose than always be trying to grab it's ass. You're not going to get boomers and GenX to take the bus. You probably could get younger generations to do that especially if there are options.

Really there should be a high speed rail along the front range and subways in places like Denver. And zoning that prioritizes development that utilized that.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by sokoloff on Saturday June 01, 2024 @05:36PM (#40549270)
If you make the bus better than driving, people will take the bus.

Ideally, you'd do that by improving the bus rather than accepting the current shitty bus situation and degrading driving to the point that it's even worse...

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by HDThoreaun on Saturday June 01, 2024 @06:12PM (#40549511)
I think to would be extremely difficult to make the bus better than driving for people that already have a car. The most obvious option is making parking expensive or hard to find but I think that would lead to new politicians before people really embrace the bus. Reality is that americans dont enjoy being in enclosed spaces with strangers, hard to overcome that.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by tbrownaw on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:18PM (#40549952)
It shouldn't be that hard to make it better (for a decent fraction of people) for specific things, like say commuting or nightlife.

It would be very hard to make it better for, say, picking up DIY supplies at the hardware store.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by jusssi on Sunday June 02, 2024 @04:13AM (#40552369)
The hardware store probably has a delivery service, because not everyone has a van or a pickup for those 2x4s. But if you DIY big stuff often enough for that to be a factor to consider, you're probably not the target group anyway. Just like people who need to drive 800 miles without a stop every other week aren't the target group for current EVs.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by pclmulqdq on Sunday June 02, 2024 @07:56AM (#40553383)
Is this a hypothetical future hardware store delivery service that enables a bus? No hardware store I have seen has a delivery service. I do a fair amount of gardening, and while most garden stores (not hardware stores, dedicated stores for landscaping and gardening) have the capability to deliver, it is always a very expensive service ($50-100 for a trip of less than 5 miles).

Most cars can fit a few 8' 2x4s as well as several bags of bulk dirt, and what hardware stores often have is a cutting service that lets you make those 2x4s shorter for transit. None of those would fit on a bus.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by sokoloff on Sunday June 02, 2024 @12:20PM (#40555289)
Home Depot and Lowes (the two largest chains in the US) both have delivery. Home Depot also has rental trucks, as does UHaul (trucks and vans) if you need to self-drive the product and decided to not own a car.

The local lumber/building supply companies also usually have delivery, though they can be harder to deal with than a consumer-oriented hardware store.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by jusssi on Sunday June 02, 2024 @01:36PM (#40555862)
> it is always a very expensive service ($50-100 for a trip of less than 5 miles)

A.k.a the cost of not owning a car. Where I live, I could pay 100€ weekly for deliveries and it'll still be cheaper than owning and operating a decent (as in, not a 20th century rust bucket) car would be.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by HDThoreaun on Sunday June 02, 2024 @05:32PM (#40557331)
Theres no getting past the fact that being on the bus means youre necessarily close to strangers with no recourse when they do things you dont like. This is a pretty big problem to overcome in the US. The bus needs to be obviously much better than driving to get people to switch when they already own a car. Just a little faster/more convenient/cheaper wont cut it.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by Karrot_Kream on Sunday June 02, 2024 @06:34PM (#40557657)
It's fine that you don't want to be next to people, but then you need to pay for that privilege. It's not sustainable otherwise.

The big problem with sprawl is that it's subsidized. The federal government taxes the population at large and uses that tax money to build large roads and lay down the necessary utilities, sewage, and drainage. Interstates and interstate connections (viaducts, onramps, offramps, etc) come purely out of the FHWA budget which comes from taxes. Gas taxes help but the federal gas tax hasn't been changed since 1990 (indexed for inflation that's basically been a discounting gas tax) and as fuel efficiency standards increase and hybrid/EV penetration increases gas taxes end up netting less money per mile driven. Add to that the fact that cars are getting heavier in the US, increasing wear-and-tear on existing roads, and you're basically making maintenance of roads in the US cost more money per taxpayer. Some states have been increasing vehicle registration fees to compensate but that remains very unpopular.

Local roads are initially funded by the government and based on whether they are collector roads or arterials, state and federal governments allocate extra money to these roads. But when construction finishes these roads often need to be maintained by local municipalities which is when the problems come in. Often times municipalities, especially ones with lower incomes, begin having trouble maintaining roads. Higher income municipalities raise local taxes to pay for their roads but Americans also hate paying local taxes which makes this unpopular and often unviable in poorer municipalities where incomes cannot accommodate the extra tax. That's how you get huge, sprawly cities that have terrible pavement. My city is struggling with this. The rust belt has tons of cities with this.

Moreover as the US population increases we continue to sprawl outward, destroying nature with sprawly housing developments that are viable because federal and state governments often pay for initial development. You mention democracy but there's not that much democracy going on. Often times rural voters aren't organized enough to create the kind of opposition to sprawl that urban voters have. You can't have opposition via public comment in a rural area because there is no planning agency which listens to public comment in many rural areas. In fact that's often why developers target unincorporated rural areas in the first place.

Unlike Europe, Asian countries are fine with car use, but don't subsidize it nearly as much as the US does. Japan, outside of Tokyo (which is a huge city and an outlier in the way NYC is), has narrower and fewer lanes on their roads for given traffic volumes. Public street parking mostly doesn't exist and authorities quickly tow vehicles that park where they're not supposed to. As such there's a robust market for parking lots. The closer you are to a city center the more vertical, compact, and expensive the lots are. The further you are the cheaper the lots are. In really rural towns the towns run parking lots that are basically free during the day.

The US does a lot to encourage car use. It has much higher LOS standards for its roads than other developed countries, it uses federal and state tax money to offer free parking, police officers are kind to drivers and let them overstay parking limits for longer than they should and only ticket the most flagrant offenders tacitly allowing everything from using your phone in the car to styling your hair in it. And this car culture is irrational and taking up an increasing amount of GDP and emissions.

Also if it's democracy that's your problem, this article in Colorado is all about democracy. The voters voted in a pro-transit governor, they voted in the tax increases to fund additional transit, and they approve of planning officials who refuse to widen highways. So car culture isn't as popular in the US as some think. There is an increasingly vocal minority of people who aren't happy that car culture is losing its popularity though.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by HDThoreaun on Sunday June 02, 2024 @07:06PM (#40557833)
> It's not sustainable otherwise.

This has never stopped politicians before, not really sure why it will now.

Polis is much more than a pro transit governor. He's a successful serial entrepreneur, he's gay, he's charming in a nerdy way, and he's pragmatic. I dont think his election proves much about political will in regards to transit policy.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by epolanski on Saturday June 01, 2024 @08:26PM (#40550319)
That's how it is for many in Europe.

You've got a car but using it to get to work is inconvenient due to parking, and buses often have priority lanes.

But the idea of commuting to Paris or Rome in car is...tough..

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by HDThoreaun on Sunday June 02, 2024 @05:29PM (#40557321)
The problem is that we live in a democracy and most American voters dont want to live in europe. They mostly want a single family home in a low density suburban area, which makes public transit difficult.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by TheCleric on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:07PM (#40549895)
When I lived in Denver this GenXer gladly transitioned to light rail as it freed up an hour a day that I would have spent concentrating on driving on more relaxing things like reading. I miss it.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by cscurmudgeon on Sunday June 02, 2024 @02:25AM (#40551866)
Respectfully, you should be arguing for more density so you don't even have to travel by rail that much.

But any density is opposed strangely by the anti-car crowd due to (e.g., see SF local politics).

1. "It will ruin the character of our precious million year old city"

2. "Building more housing will magically cause existing people to move out the city"

3. "Developers will get rich. Can't ever let that happen. They should be in perpetual misery."

If someone is advocating for anti-car policies but neutral or against density, they are holding inconsistent views.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by TheCleric on Monday June 03, 2024 @09:13PM (#40569663)
I’m in favor of both.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by Gigachad on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:32PM (#40548851)
If boomers want to continue driving, they can. Just make them pay for what they use. Work out the real market value for the space and charge for it.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by sien on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:56PM (#40549006)
Yep. The same should be done for public transport.

In the US Farebox Recovery Ratios of 20% or less are common.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio#United_...

Only 58% of fuel tax in Australia is spent on any kind of transport including rail.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/fuel-excise-not-being...

Australians drive a similar amount to the US.

From

https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/11/13/how-trains-could...

Yet only 8% of the distance travelled by land in the EU is by rail. Even in the most train-happy countries, Austria and the Netherlands, the figures are 13% and 11%. In those countries, more than 75% of land travel is done by car.

So even in Europe and Australia where cars more than pay for their costs people still drive a lot. This is with all the effort put in to public transport in Europe.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by ksplicer on Saturday June 01, 2024 @06:11PM (#40549493)
How are you coming to the conclusion that cars are paying their fair share of costs? I'm not familiar with Australian politics at all, but a quick look found that local governments pay most of road maintenance, not the fuel excise tax[1]. Another hidden cost of cars is that they decrease density of cities and suburbs, which causes all other infrastructure to also get more expensive (sewage, gas, power, etc).

[1] https://alga.com.au/policy-centre/roads-and-infrastructure/r...

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by Jensson on Saturday June 01, 2024 @05:13PM (#40549118)
You can see about half of trips are by car in for example Germany:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1309333/germany-modal-sp...

Public transit isn't all, just being denser so that biking and walking is more viable is also a big part to why European cities aren't concrete wastelands full of parking and roads. The normal way to go and buy groceries is to walk not drive.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by bee_rider on Saturday June 01, 2024 @05:56PM (#40549394)
These transport options—more notably for cars, but everything else too—are still heavily subsidized in the sense that we’re allowing them to ignore the cost of cleaning up after them, or the cost of climate change (if they aren’t cleaned up after). If we stop that theft from everybody’s grandkids, the economics might get some people to switch over to public transit at least.

But it is really easy to steal from these people, they are tiny babies or not even born yet, they can’t vote. Like stealing candy from a baby, except the candy is their planet’s ecosystem. Sucks to be them, I guess.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by epolanski on Saturday June 01, 2024 @08:27PM (#40550330)
The dutch use bikes a lot. Like really a lot.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by throwaway2037 on Sunday June 02, 2024 @01:18AM (#40551566)
Most cities in the Nordics as well as Japan. I am always amazed at the crazy weather that people will ride through in Sweden and Finland!
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by CalRobert on Sunday June 02, 2024 @01:03AM (#40551514)
Similarly, all roads should be tolled.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by throwaway2037 on Sunday June 02, 2024 @01:16AM (#40551555)
Interesting point. Why don't you think this is true in more highly developed countries? Two example come to mind: The "seal" you must buy in Suisse, and most high speed roads in Japan are rolled.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by bluecalm on Sunday June 02, 2024 @04:43AM (#40552533)
Cars don't pay for their costs and it's not close. Fuel tax doesn't even cover a small fraction of infrastructure cost in most European countries. Building roads is heavily subsidized from federal budgets, land given for free, accident costs covered by public money etc. etc.
Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by Gibbon1 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @05:01PM (#40549038)
My response to that sort of argument is yes indeed you are 100% correct in theory and 100% wrong in practice. It's the result of framing everything as a moral argument and shooting for perfection. That never ends well.

You're better off depending on age and grim reaper to get old people to stop driving and focus on habituating young people to just not.

Re:In Colorado, an Ambitious New Highway Policy Is Not Build... by tomtheelder on Saturday June 01, 2024 @09:29PM (#40550653)
I think the argument is a little different. I’d say the best framing of it is that we have sacrificed every other method of transportation at the altar of personal cars. Building for cars is what has made every other option shitty.

So it’s not so much that just make driving cars shitty for no reason as it is that you _have_ to make driving shitty if you want to unshittify walking/biking/transit.