> Almost all games via Steam (Proton) work flawlessly aside from some Ring-0/anticheat stuff. Most apps work great with Wine. If you're not using exotic hardware the drivers are rock-solid for almost all use-cases.

This has been one of the problems with Linux on the desktop since the beginning - 90% isn’t good enough, the last 10% matters.

Obviously the kernel and portions of the user space are good enough, hence the success of ChromeOS and Android, and all of the problems are surmountable via throwing money at development like Valve is doing with gaming.

As it stands you can’t recommend Linux to most people without an asterisk beside it and it will never grow to be a real competitor until that is fixed.

> As it stands you can’t recommend Linux to most people without an asterisk beside it and it will never grow to be a real competitor until that is fixed.

There are a lot of "most people" who use linux with zero trouble, without even necessarily realizing it, because their family members have set them up on linux. Yes some hard core gamers might not be a fit for linux but these are not "most people". "Most people" just need the browser.

Dual boot Linux and windows isn't a big deal to me. Doing it for 10 years. Only boot into windows for some games.

Honestly, it is good enough. The Steam Deck is a runaway success, making it essentially a fourth game console platform, which is motivating mainstream developers to ensure their games work on the Steam Deck.

At worst you might boot Windows on a self-contained external drive to play e-sports games, but then you can use Linux as the daily driver.

> OS makers (here mainly Microsoft and Apple) to increase margins via including tracking and ads into the system

Not sure I see it on Apple. macOS is free. There are no ads in it.

I don't see ads on Windows either, unless you mean bloatware.

Pushed (“recommended”) content is a type of ad

Apple has recommandations in their stores since the beginning, all the way back in 2001 for the iTunes Store.

Apple has ads in Apple News+, which is a terrible thing for something you’re paying for already.

Apple has recommandations in their subscription services of other things on their service. That’s not an ad. That’s a recommandation.

Is there something I’m missing?

> macOS is free. There are no ads in it.

macOS advertises the following:

- iCloud (demanded in settings via a perpetual notification pip)

- Sponsored content in the App Store, Spotlight Search

- Safari, which will complain if you don't use it enough (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252412228)

- AppleTV (I do not know a single living soul that pays for this service; why is it preinstalled?)

- Apple Music (which by-default launches when you put on your headphones, with a modal asking you to subscribe)

It very obviously has advertisements, by both Apple's own admission and simple recognition of dark patterns.

> I don't see ads on Windows either

Oh good grief:

- Windows 8: Sponsored content in Microsoft Store, Groove Music ads, Microsoft Edge nags, Live Tile sponsored content, OneDrive nags, Microsoft Office advertisements... hell hath no fury like the advertisers that designed Windows 8.

- Windows 10: Special advertisement modals for Windows 11, Microsoft Store nags get worse, Cortana serves Bing advertisements, Xbox Game Pass advertisements, paid video codec advertisements, worse OneDrive nags and whatever the hell "Microsoft Movies & TV" is. Office is a subscription now called "365", and Microsoft really wants you to buy-in.

- Windows 11: The entire news feature. All of it is ads. Your search has ads, your start menu has a "recommended" page with ads, your browser sends you ads in other browsers so you can use a more ad-ridden browser.

Can your grandmother use it, though? Without you setting it up, I mean.

Can your grandmother set up any other computer?

What is a computer nowadays anyway? It's just a web browser for most people.

EDIT: A colleague of mine had his grandmother on Linux back in 2010. He remote connected to update it and keep things in order. He said it was the easiest to maintain.

Certainly yes. I have installed her one. Took me 15 minutes to install. Everything works.

With most distros, Linux is no more difficult to install, configure, and use than Windows is.

How many windows installs has your grandmother gone through?

Let me give you the answer: zero. Grandma doesn’t even update the computer.

Yes. But as another poster mentioned, can your grandmother setup (and also maintain) a windows computer, keeping it free from malware etc.? I posit no.

Can they maintain and keep a Mac (no installation needed) updated and free from malware? Updates sure, but malware free? I posit no.

Now to Linux. My small sample size evidence is that more than 5+ yrs ago, I set up my GPs with Linux Mint, and they use it without any issues. Since they don’t have root, and it’s Linux, the malware footprint is near enough to zero making them as safe as possible from anything bad. It also helps to educate them about not trusting unsolicited emails, etc.—-But, although related, is for a diff discussion.

When I periodically visit them, I check that updates are done.

I’ve had zero complaints from them.

So yes… grandparents can not only use, but love Linux!

I'm absolute putting Linux on my mother's computer when she needs a new one again.

what I said in another comment: as long as you cant buy a PC with Linux pre-installed easily this will remain a small minority OS.

> Linux pre-installed easily

At this point I'm fairly sure setting up the average Linux distro takes less time than the first-party Windows and MacOS welcome wizards.

Less time, more skill.

I literally just a few minutes ago setup Linux (Kubuntu 24.04) on a new laptop (Framework). It was insert USB drive, press power button, select the drive to boot, wait a few seconds for live OS, run the "Install Now" app on the desktop, hit "Next" a few times, wait about 5 minutes for the install to complete, and restart and remove the disk. Can't get much simpler to setup a fresh system.

Before someone argues that “this requires enough background technical knowledge to know which buttons to press to make it easy” there is a point there, but distro maintainers have had that point in front of them for decades.

There’s now only one prerequisite for new users: the willingness to format the hard drive. Everything else is trivial and for 9/10 distros the screens are welcoming, clear, refined, and non-technical.

Suppose I should start certifying people capable of pressing F12 on boot.

nobody needs to install windows when they get a PC these days

You have to go through a first run wizard to set up your Microsoft account, etc. even on a computer with Windows preinstalled. At least that was my experience a few years ago, and I doubt it has changed.

Nobody except a lot of people enthusiastic enough about gaming to build their own desktop

Hopefully now those people give Windows the side-eye since the advent of the Steam Deck. If you just need a PC for gaming, you're practically the prime candidate for switching to Linux.

A lot of linux laptops available now from dell, lenovo, etc.

Also Slimbook, Tuxedo, System 67 and many more. Hardly any excuse these days, And also agree it is so simple an quick to do the installations that it is not such a problem anymore.

nobody knows these brands apart from Linux users.

> agree it is so simple an quick to do the installations that it is not such a problem anymore.

I wonder if people here are sometimes exposed to non technical users. You would be very surprised.

Well it is not exactly nobody. I know a few people who were not GNU/Linux users and bought laptops from them, But yeah you have to do some research for informed buying, it is a must for anything otherwise if you only buy known brands you are just a fool anyways. But yeah more people should know about this and make informed purchases.

As for installation, my sister is a graphic designer and installed KDE Neon completely on her own about half a year ago. Also one of my friends before that did the same with Kubuntu. And they are far from technical people, especially when it comes to computers.

I think the biggest problem are our crappy educational systems which are these days basically Microsoft propaganda and training centers. They should all be teaching free and opensource only and not do free marketing for Big Tech which are nowadays increasingly just spyware/adware corporations. but these days they hardly even mention anyone else and thus just produce mindless uninformed consumers. But yeah I know this is a big problem to solve but a must to solve or else it will get increasing bad for society. And that is why we must also act politically and join political parties and push fort these fixes and improvements in educational and governmental policies to demand the software and hardware that respects users freedoms, privacy and other digital rights. And only this way informed and aware people will also demand people respecting product when buying and more brands that not many know will become known and the better known will be asked more to offer GNU/Linux-preinstalled computers.

You can. They're called chromebooks.

that won't be an escape from the ad/ai slop though

Steam Deck?

most people dont buy a Steam Deck to use it as a computer.

Gaming is something you do on computers. How many Windows users only have their Windows system to play games? I bet that number is quite significant.

Next we’ll gatekeep drawing tablets like iPads and say that they aren’t really doing computing. But the thing is if there was one day in the future where an artist’s tablet that ran Linux became commercially successful, the end result would be that more users are on Linux.

I agree with you in principle, since a computer’s a computer, but the Steam Deck is so different and specifically made for gaming that it’s really hard to count it amongst the Linux fold. We don’t count the Switch owners as computer users of BSD after all.

And if you’re trying to make Linux into this paragon against the AI invasion, a portable console connected to the largest gaming store in the world is not a winning move. With how fickle Valve is, they’ll go all in on AI any day now.

So, evidently you have not used a Steam Deck or appear to be in abject denial of what it is.

> the Steam Deck is so different and specifically made for gaming that it’s really hard to count it amongst the Linux fold.

That's funny, it has a KDE desktop and a graphical installer for Linux packages. It looks no different from my Linux desktop at home.

> We don’t count the Switch owners as computer users of BSD after all.

You very well could: https://switchroot.org/

The default Switch OS is more importantly based on Android though.

> a portable console connected to the largest gaming store in the world is not a winning move.

You're damn right. That's why Valve specifically designed the Steam Deck so it's not connected to them for essential services. You can install Windows on it, put another Linux distro over the base install, or dual boot with whatever ungodly combination you prefer. I don't know who led you onto this, but using Valve-provided software is entirely optional for Steam Deck owners.

> With how fickle Valve is, they’ll go all in on AI any day now.

Evidently you don't use Steam very much, either. Steam, the app, hasn't received a serious "new feature" since they spruced up the in-game chat app during the pandemic. I am about as worried of Valve going all-in on AI as I am worried of Joe Biden adopting serious socialist reform into his policy. It's not going to happen, Jack.

The presence of these affordances (allowing easy access to a Linux desktop, the ability to install Windows) is there to placate people like you. The vast majority of Steam Deck users will never use a Switch form factor and think let me pop into the desktop to install command line utilities.

And finally, Valve is conservative with many things, and fickle in many others. They have completely reversed their policy with regards to what adult game is or isn’t allowed on their store twice. Allowing AI-made content on their store is a question of policy.

There are AI-based games on their store. Not many, but they exist: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1889620/AI_Roguelite/

If you can manage to monetize a game that relies on OpenAI, I don't see why it couldn't be made available on Steam. I also don't see why going "all-in" on those experiences would ruin the experience for everyone else; that's the industry's decision to make, Valve doesn't really make games anymore.

The Switch doesn’t have a Linux desktop mode installed and consumer-accessible by a prominent menu option by default. The Steam Deck does.

What do they use it as? A paper weight? Wall art?

Long term Linux (mint) user here. As you say, Linux came a long way and for me it's perfect.

I'm thinking about switching to Mac. Not because of the software, but because of the hardware. A few years ago I got a MacBook from work, and that hardware just blows away everything else on the market:

- Awesome battery life

- Awesome sound: doesn't sound like any other crappy laptop speaker

- Awesome touchpad: I now don't take a mouse with me because this thing is so good

I didn't find any laptop that comes even close to this.

Last time I brought this up, people suggested things like "Just use a headphone". Sorry I don't want to use headphones when I can use the speakers.

So please, if anyone knows hardware that comes close to a MacBook, please let me know.

You could run linux on an M-Series mac, not to sure how stable it is atm, but might be worth a shot

If you are ok with a desktop, you can beat the macbooks. My linux on desktop is a delight

Unfortunately no, I'm not always at home.

I ran Linux Mint on my 2015 MacBook Pro for a long time.

Maybe in the near future Linux will run well on Apple silicon as well.

Can it run my specific Mac apps? Didn’t think so.

I sincerely hope the world worked that way, that people could just switch OS on a whim, but it’s not the case. The simple fact is most people are incapable of thinking they can install an OS. They never did, never will, don’t think it’s possible. They just run what’s installed on their computer.

>push from OS makers (...and Apple) to increase margins via including tracking and ads

I'm not sure I see much incentive with macOS. They might make a few dollars from ads but less than the hundreds of dollars they make when someone buys a macbook because they don't like the ads in windows. I've noticed zero ads pushed to me by the os in ten years of mac use. Also googling just now has them as the US's most profitable company making $100bn last year so I doubt they are desperate to change their strategy by shoving ads in.

There are people in this very thread that claim Windows doesn't have ads, either. I think people's understanding of advertisement is relative when they only perceive a binary choice in operating systems.