News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by z5h on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @02:06PM (#40514905)
As a long time amateur photographer (using physical cameras and lenses), I have Halide (by the same company) on my iOS home screen for when I need to take a real phono on my iPhone. I use it all the time without issue. And would recommend it to any photographer.

So I paid for Kino without hesitation. Just fired it up, set BNW grade, pressed record, and it immediately crashed. Tried again and it crashed again. Tried AGAIN and it worked... (iPhone 13 mini, iOS 17.4.1).

I have faith this will be worked out soon.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @02:34PM (#40515201)
Sorry you ran into that. I distinctly remember testing the 13 mini, due to notch layout issues, so this is unexpected. As soon as the crash reports come in, we’ll dig into that.

Unfortunately, while we had a QA person on this, and nearly 100 beta testers, the iPhone camera APIs are a mine field. We’ll get a fix out as soon as we have details.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by danielskogly on Thursday May 30, 2024 @02:07AM (#40520596)
Same issue on my iPhone 13 mini 17.5.1, tried with Sando. Crashed immediately after beginning filming
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by halostatue on Thursday May 30, 2024 @08:31PM (#40530307)
I tried with my iPhone 12 mini 17.5.1 BNW. It didn't crash, but it looked like it had and then came back with a weird error (sorry, I didn’t capture it).

My phone is due for an upgrade soon, so it’s not a big deal at the moment.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ungamedplayer on Thursday May 30, 2024 @03:21AM (#40521041)
I heard that the iPhone landscape was not fragmented though.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:44AM (#40525040)
If you stick to the high level "Hey, take a photo for me" APIs, it isn't a problem. If you want to take advantage of hardware specific features, the iPhone camera system varies from generation to generation, and sometimes within a single generation. On top of this, the AV frameworks have a mountain of undefined behavior which easily breaks with iOS updates. There are tons of iOS and model specific code branches that have cropped up in Halide over the years.

That said, it doesn't hold a candle to Android fragmentation. It's a major reason we will not touch the platform.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by zamadatix on Thursday May 30, 2024 @05:39AM (#40521782)
Definitely fragmented, even within the same generation and software version there are clearly meaningful hardware differences, but more like "dry mud" cracked apart than "grand canyon" cracked apart in comparison to other options. Still something you have to deal with though, no getting around that.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by frogpelt on Friday May 31, 2024 @03:35PM (#40539346)
That is a comment usually always stated in comparison to Android hardware. Would you say those two are equally fragmented?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ungamedplayer on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:50AM (#40645628)
I don't write for either. An API is an API though.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by infinitedata on Thursday May 30, 2024 @06:22AM (#40522055)
This looks really promising, hope all goes great! My only concern is reading that you do collect crash reports despite being privacy-focused. How much information is there to identify the picture/video taken or the device/person?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by js2 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:57AM (#40525193)
There's two possibilities.

1. They're using the crash reports provided through App Store Connect. These are stack traces with no personally identifying information. You can enable/disable these under Settings > Privacy & Security > Share With App Developers.

2. They're using a third-party crash reporter. Under the covers these are often based on PLCrashReporter or KSCrash. A few such as Firebase (previously Crashlytics) implement their own exception handlers/stack unwinders. These are typically anonymized, but at this point it's the app (or the crash reporting SDK it includes) to decide exactly what to report. Most apps will try hard to avoid PII because that's easier than dealing with GDPR, CCPA, ATT disclosures, etc.

> As soon as the crash reports come in

This leads me to believe it's (1) since third-party crash reporters usually send in the crash reports as soon as the app has restarted, while Apple delays crash reports in App Store Connect. In which case the app itself isn't collecting anything: it's iOS and you choose to opt-in when you first setup the device.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by wahnfrieden on Thursday May 30, 2024 @12:14PM (#40525403)
Their privacy manifest shows that they do not collect any data. So they are either not using Firebase or similar for crash analytics, or their privacy manifest is inaccurate and should be reported.

We must specify that we're collecting diagnostics (apart from the ones Apple collects on our behalf for opt-in users) even if they aren't attached to PII or user identifiers. So if they're doing this honestly, it indicates they are relying on Apple's opt-in crash analytics exclusively.

In my experience at least 80-90% of users are NOT opted in to sharing usage analytics with Apple, so they won't receive most crash reports unless they're collecting them through an undisclosed backdoor.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Thursday May 30, 2024 @03:29PM (#40527713)
Yup. We just use Apple’s crash reporting system.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by shrew on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:27PM (#40515884)
Same phone and same OS version down to the patch number. I’ve noticed UI hangs and stutter when changing the grades, and BNW in particular seems to cause the biggest issues. Not yet experienced a crash even if I flick between grades in quick succession.

I did also find manual focus produced odd green visual artefacts in the live view as you move the focus control.

With that said, it’s a nice UI, hopefully the bugs can be ironed out!

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:46PM (#40516113)
The green is focus peaking. In a future update, we plan to make that opt-in in the UI.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by shrew on Thursday May 30, 2024 @04:22AM (#40521366)
Ah, my lack of knowledge rather than a bug then, my bad! Thanks for explanation!
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by col_rad on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @02:46PM (#40515354)
Same issue with iPhone 12 mini, iOS 17.4.1
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by KennyBlanken on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:50PM (#40517458)
I paid for Halide and almost immediately afterward, they announced a policy of locking new features made after whatever version you had bought unless you bought it a second time.

It's the only app I've ever bought whose developer has done that bullshit.

I won't make that mistake again.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:18PM (#40517732)
It sounds like you bought Halide 1. At the time, we had supported Halide 1 for three years of huge feature updates when we launched Halide Mark II. Rather than just drop Halide 1, we gave everyone Mark II and a year of additional updates.

The alternative would have been to just release a separate app called Halide 2 and stop updating Halide 1. In that case, version 1 would probably fall apart pretty quickly due to OS and camera changes year to year.

I’m genuinely curious if you’d have preferred we stopped updating Halide 1, because we’re always trying to find the best way to support users while keeping the light on.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by 2muchcoffeeman on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:57PM (#40518575)
How do you guys manage new versions?

Updates have always been a PITA on iOS. There’s no way to charge for them.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by agos on Thursday May 30, 2024 @04:20AM (#40521353)
they really don't. the last feature they released was support for the action button on the new iPhones, seven months ago
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Thursday May 30, 2024 @06:44AM (#40522187)
Following the action button release, we added deferred processing support. It involved rewriting a bit of the capture pipeline, but significantly speeds up 48MP captures.

Following that, we had a series of bug fix updates while we worked out the next major update. It’s maybe 2/3 done, but we had to shelf it until after the Kino launch for external reasons.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by fragmede on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:55PM (#40517505)
why would buying an old version entitle you to a new version?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by zamadatix on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:14PM (#40517690)
For every couple year major versions (with decently advanced notice it's coming and/or a recency allowance) I think it's fair to charge anew but for minor improvements over the lifecycle of a major version I think it's fair to want to buy everything that will come in the major version up front if you're making a one time purchase. Tons of software is this way from Sublime to Windows to ZBrush to an absolute crapload of games. In this model a one time purchase is seen more as an alternative to holding a subscription over the lifetime rather than the intent to forego any future features or enhancements out of interest of the exact current feature set being all you'll ever want. There is also the "in-between model" e.g. IntelliJ where you get the current version + a period of updates and you can either stay with where it ends at that period or pay a smaller amount for more updates.

I'm not sure which group the Halide changes mentioned above fell into but just on the general topic I think it's a fair expectation.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by augustohp on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @11:55PM (#40519915)
They do something which is "common" in Apple-land (Dash for MacOS does this, a Twitter client did this as well, over and over): They get the same app, add some features, call it v2, launch as a new app and remove v1 from the store.

They don't "give" you the new version. They take away the app you paid "once", and provide you with a version with an expire date. So you have no choice. You either pay them, again, or lose access to the v2 (subscription based) app.

I don't mind paying for good software, I even think Hallide is worth $60. But I won't make the same mistake again. So best of luck Lux! I really wish you all the success. If you treat your customers right this time.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by zamadatix on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:16PM (#40530524)
This claim doesn't quite line up with posts like https://old.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/xjdjzu/halide_updat... or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40522988 or the developers own claims of not taking it away in this thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40517732

That is "forever updates" = no but "take away what you had" also = no. It was a period of updates with a dropoff date of where you left off. This lines up with my expectations of a one time purchase in that I'm not expecting 50 years of feature updates when buying software just because they haven't went out of business yet I'm just expecting I keep the feature access I have at the end, which is what these posts from many different folks are all claiming.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Clamchop on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:22PM (#40517764)
"Entitled" seems like an inappropriate word here. OP isn't entitled to the software, and the publisher isn't entitled to repeat customers or the perception of being a good value.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by fragmede on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @10:41PM (#40519604)
What word seems more appropriate to you? "Entitled" is an unfortunately loaded word, but it seems to be the verb most appropriate to me.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by _carbyau_ on Thursday May 30, 2024 @12:10AM (#40519986)
I dunno. I understand "entitle" has connotations - like the word "privilege" these days - but I thought this was used in the straight sense of the word.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by aidenn0 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @10:03PM (#40519383)
That's how literally every application I ever purchased prior to 2008 worked...
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by yard2010 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @05:42AM (#40521803)
Can you please give an example please as I never heard of this bs in my whole life
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by liamwire on Thursday May 30, 2024 @07:20AM (#40522418)
Without any malice or snide intent, I assume you must be under 25? Quickest example that comes to mind is every OS update to both Apple and Microsoft platforms until the former went free. Hell, iPhone OS 2 was a paid upgrade for iPod touch users.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by aidenn0 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @12:12PM (#40525379)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Photoshop#Version_histor...

New version every 2-3 years which required a purchase. It was a few hundred dollars every time you wanted to upgrade (people may not remember this, but PS was the "value" product when it launched; professional software was often low 4 figures).

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by RowanH on Thursday May 30, 2024 @02:41PM (#40527227)
30+ years in the software industry. Everyone did this back in the day - then it changed for 3 reasons (1) completely unsustainable (2) people didn't upgrade, or being forced to upgrade and pay large prices got grumpy about it. (3) the money people figured out subscriptions were more profitable.

There's tonnes of companies that have legacy 'pay upfront' models, that hit the wall as they'd saturated their markets, then their revenue stream dropped off and all of a sudden saw the wall of transitioning to web/mobile needing to happen and didn't have the funds to pull it off.

I'd almost completely forgotten about it until I was challenged by a prospect in a meeting monday 'is this one of these new lease software systems, I want to own it!" had to educate him on the way the world worked now...

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by theshrike79 on Friday May 31, 2024 @05:33AM (#40533011)
> (3) the money people figured out subscriptions were more profitable.

Subscriptions bring in steady money that allows for better forecasting and resourcing.

Releasing a Very Big Paid Update every year or two years brings in an unknown lump sum of money with a tail end that might or might not be enough.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ein0p on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:27PM (#40517800)
One time fee + good software = instant purchase from me as well. Subscription usually means no deal. I don’t lease my tools.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by firecall on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:50PM (#40518518)
FWIW, no issues on first run on my iPhone 13 Pro Max :-)

Could be related to the 13 mini cameras specifically.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by parkersweb on Thursday May 30, 2024 @02:59AM (#40520945)
Just to add - same issue iPhone 12 - iOS 17.4.1
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by totetsu on Thursday May 30, 2024 @07:25AM (#40522447)
Crashed on an SE
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sandofsky on Friday May 31, 2024 @11:13AM (#40536229)
We think we have a fix ready. If you'd like to help verify, please email [email protected] and mention Hacker News, and we'll get you on a TestFlight.