News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by amelius on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:08AM (#40511054)
How do you know that Kagi won't become as bad as Google at some point?
Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by spacebanana7 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:22AM (#40511164)
Also it’s unlikely Kagi will ever become big enough for SEO people to specifically target with manipulative content.

Even if they got 100 million active paying users it’d still be a tiny fraction of overall search traffic.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by eitland on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @09:34AM (#40511833)
If anything, Kagi has proven that Googles "SEO ruined it" argument isn't valid.

In the beginning, Kagi was mostly just API calls to Google and Bing AFAIK. Their results were still better for some reason, probably because they didn't have to consider how valuable the ads on garbage site were before throwing the site out of my results.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by spacebanana7 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @10:04AM (#40512154)
I agree with you to some extent. For example, there's no reason I can think of why Google couldn't allow user selected domain blacklisting or custom bangs.

But I fear that if a large search engine copied some of Kagi's filters/lenses for non-commercial blogs & forums then SEO agencies would dedicate immense resources to polluting them.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by freediver on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @11:57PM (#40519930)
Not possible by definition. Kagi Small Web is non commercial sites only, by definition. And the list is fixed (and open source). There is nothing SEO can do to infiltrate it.
Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by Kye on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @10:37AM (#40512441)
It doesn't have to be big if it's rich.

People will target Kagi because it's packed to the brim with people who have $5-10/month to spend on a search engine, and likely have $5-10/month to spend on other things too.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by p3rls on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @09:27AM (#40511769)
Why would they? The same manipulative techniques that work in my niche on Google seem to work even better on Kagi
Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by breakfastduck on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:13AM (#40511088)
We don't, but a model where a user pays for a service rather than being free and ad supported is significantly less likely to enact user unfriendly changes.

If the way you make money is by convincing people to pay, you are highly incentivised to make the product good, especially where there are many other free competitors who are ad supported.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by glitchc on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:21AM (#40511156)
Tell that to cable companies, sports broadcasts and now streaming services. The one incontrovertible fact of modern society is that ads eat everything else. No other revenue source compares.
Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by karma_pharmer on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:33AM (#40511260)
ads eat everything else

Well duh. Because it's the only value you're allowed to collect from retail customers without having to deal with either chargebacks or kyc.

We've deliberately made every other form of micropayment infeasible. It shouldn't be surprising that the only one left is insanely popular.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by sseagull on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @09:28AM (#40511783)
Partly. But also because it's just a way to make more money. If you make X from payments, and you can make Y from ads, then X+Y > X.

You might lose some people, but probably not many - we've been conditioned to really accept ads everywhere.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by glitchc on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @10:43AM (#40512506)
Also because Y>>X.
Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by eitland on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @09:31AM (#40511806)
Kagi is worth the price every month, unlike a number of other things I have supported it is not an investment for me in the hope that it will one day be worth it but rather a service that I pay a small sum for which in turns removes lots of frustration from my life every month.

If they do become bad then at least I have had a fantastic search engine for another few years of my life like I had from 2002 until 2009 ish.

And also, already at this point, they and marginalia has proven that it isn't impossible to enter the search engine marked even now. This was long considered impossible, at least here on HN.

Re:Google Search document leak reveals inner workings of ran... by duckmysick on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @12:21PM (#40513683)
What's the argument you're trying to make?

That because there's a chance Kagi will become bad, there's no point in using it now and thus we should stick to Google, which is already bad? That doesn't make sense.

The same line of thought can be applied to anything. We don't know what will happen in the future, therefore we can't be sure that things won't go bad. Is there even a way to have such a guarantee?

Assuming I don't want to use Google (because it's bad) and I won't use Kagi or Perplexity or others (because they might become bad), what's the realistic solution? Roll my own search engine? I don't have resources and I don't trust the future me to maintain it.