Seems like sama may have put a big hole in that argument when he tweeted "her", now it is very easy to say that they knowingly cloned ScarJo's likeness. When will tech leaders learn to stop tweeting.

Or perhaps they cloned a character's likeness?

Is there a distinction?

'Her' is a character in the film. They did not advertise it as a real-person.

>Is there a distinction?

Yes, that would be a copyright violation on top of everything else.

Great idea though!

I'm going to start selling Keanu Reeves T-Shirts using this little trick.

See, I'm not using Keanu's likeness if I don't label it as Keanu. I'm just going to write Neo in a Tweet, and then say I'm just cloning Neo's likeness.

Neo is not a real person, so Keanu can't sue me! Bwahahaha

I love these takes that constantly pop up in tech circles.

There's no way "you" (the people that engage in these tactics) believe anyone is that gullible to not see what's happening. You either believe yourselves to be exceedingly clever or everyone else has the intelligence of toddler.

With the gumption some tech "leaders" display, maybe both.

If you have to say "technically it's not" 5x in a row to justify a position in a social context just short-circuit your brain and go do something else.

Just to be clear, my comment was sarcastic, I agree with you and I don't think it's a great idea at all.

Writing this comment mostly to say - damn, I didn't think about it this way, but I guess "either believe yourselves to be exceedingly clever or everyone else has the intelligence of toddler" is indeed the mindset.

The only other alternative I can think of is "we all know it's BS, but do they have more money than us to spend on lawyers to call it out?" - which isn't much better TBH.

If you find a guy that looks identical to him, however ...

>If you find a guy that looks identical to him, however ...

...it wouldn't make any difference.

A Barack Obama figurine is a Barack Obama figurine, no matter how much you say that it's actually a figurine of Boback O'Rama, a random person that coincidentally looks identically to the former US President.

What?

That situation would be completely legal. Come on.

>What?

California Civil Code Section 3344(a) states:

Any person who knowingly uses another’s name, voice, signature, photograph, or likeness, in any manner, on or in products, merchandise, or goods, or for purposes of advertising or selling, or soliciting purchases of, products, merchandise, goods or services, without such person’s prior consent, or, in the case of a minor, the prior consent of his parent or legal guardian, shall be liable for any damages sustained by the person or persons injured as a result thereof.

What are you supposed to do if you look like a famous celebrity? Die? Get real.

>What are you supposed to do if you look like a famous celebrity?

Not make a living posing for pictures without consent of the said celebrity?

Re: "get real" - the law is pretty real.

Sure, but you're not. You're just a look-alike and Boback O'Rama is not somebody with personality rights.

Things like parody are protected under fair use, explicitly.

Nitpick: it's not copyright, it's personality rights and likeness. It's a violation of it nonetheless.

That’s a weaksauce argument IMO. The character was played by SJ. Depictions of this character necessarily have to be depictions of the voice actress.

Your argument may be stronger if OpenAI said something like “the movie studio owns the rights to this character’s likeness, so we approached them,” but it’s not clear they attempted that.

They didn't approach her, they approached her agent, which should've the point of contact for either case.

As to whether she owns the rights of that performance or somebody else, we'd have to read the contract; most likely she doesn't, though.

Probably anyone but her inner circle can "approach her" directly. I would expect any other kind of connection to be made through her agent.

The character has a very distinct tonality. particularly the inflections and word emphasis.

I honestly don't think Scarlett (the person, not her "her" character) has anything to favor their case, aside from the public's sympathy.

She may have something only if it turns out that the training set for that voice is composed of some recordings of her (the person, not the movie), which I highly doubt and is, unfortunately, extremely hard to prove. Even that wouldn't be much, though, as it could be ruled a derivative work, or something akin to any celebrity impersonator. Those guys can even advertise themselves using the actual name of the celebrities involved and it's allowed.

Me personally, I hope she takes them to court anyway, as it will be an interesting trial to follow.

An interesting facet is, copyright law goes to the substance of the copyrighted work; in this case, because of the peculiarities of her character in "her", she is pretty much only voice, I wonder if that make things look different to the eyes of a judge.

Likeness rights and copyright are different.

Fictional characters cannot have personality rights, for obvious reasons.

That falls under copyright, trademarks, ...

Actors who play fictional characters have personality rights.

Yes, but not the fictional character. Scarlett Johansson's character in her, credited only as "voice", is a fictional character.

No one claimed the fictional character's personality rights were infringed.

People who want to use an actor's likeness can't get around likeness rights by saying they impersonated a specific performance actually.

Yeeah, this was very stupid. Sigh.

only when they can get a bigger fix from something else.

it takes more than money to fuel these types, and they would have far better minders and bumpers if the downside outweighed the upside. they aren’t stupid, just addicted.

musk was addict smart, owned up to his proclivities and bought the cartel.

It's also very easy to say that they were inspired by the concept of the movie, but the voice is different.

Sure if they hadn’t contacted her twice for permission, including 2 days before launch.

I heard the voice before hearing this news and didn't recognize her, but it's crazy if they really cloned her voice without her permission. Even worse somehow since they did such a bad job at it.

They can say they had a certain thing in mind, which was to produce something like ‘Her’, and obviously Scarjo would have sold it home for them if she participated. But in lieu of the fact that she didn’t, they still went out and created what they had in mind, which was something LIKE ‘Her’. That doesn’t sound illegal.

Not illegal, because this would be a civil case. But they’re on thin ice because there’s a big difference between “creating something like Her” and “creating something like Scarlet Johansson’s performance in Her”.

Creating something like Her is creating something like Scarlet Johansson’s performance of her. The whole point is to hit the same note, which is a voice and an aesthetic and a sensibility. That’s the point! She wasn’t willing to do it. If they hit the same note without training on her voice, then I think that’s fair game.

Yeah, influential people shouldn't get to functionally own a "likeness." It's not a fingerprint. An actor shouldn't credibly worry about getting work because a rich/famous doppelganger exists (which may threaten clientele).

Explicit brand reference? Bad. Circumstantial insinuation? Let it go.

What else does a famous actor have but a likeness? What if their likeness is appropriated to support a cause they disagree with, or a job they declined for moral or ethical reasons? The public will still associate them first and they will bear the consequences.

A famous actor still has acting, name recognition, and generally mountains of cash. But should not get to call dibs on some vague "likeness" simply because they got hot first. Someone shouldn't damage/lose their livelihood because their famous doppelganger iced them out.

It probably is illegal in CA: https://repository.law.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...

"when voice is sufficient indicia of a celebrity's identity, the right of publicity protects against its imitation for commercial purposes without the celebrity's consent."

I'd be surprised if it was legal anywhere in the US, but this just puts the final nail into Sky's coffin.

But why? Sounds like a violation to the rights of the sound actor

Because it's meant to give the _appearance_ or _perception_ that a celebrity is involved. Their actions demonstrate they were both highly interested and had the expectation that the partnership was going to work out, with the express purpose of using the celebrity's identity for their own commercial purposes.

If they had just screened a bunch of voice actors and chosen the same one no one would care (legally or otherwise).

What OpenAI did here is beyond the pale. This is open and shut for me based off of the actions surrounding the voice training.

I think a lot of people are wondering about a situation (which clearly doesn’t apply here) in which someone was falsely accused of impersonation based on an accidental similarity. I have more sympathy for that.

But that’s giving OpenAI far more than just the benefit of the doubt: there is no doubt in this case.

I think "beyond the pale" is a bit hyperbolic. The voice actor has publicity rights, too.

Sounds like one of those situations you'd have to prove intent.

(and given the timeline ScarJo laid out in her Twitter feed, I'd be inclined to vote to convict at the present moment)

Not necessarily, because this would be a civil matter, the burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence - it’s glaring obvious that this voice is emulating the movie Her and I suspect it wouldn’t be hard to convince a jury.

> Sounds like one of those situations you'd have to prove intent.

The discovery process may help figuring the intent - especially any internal communication before and after the two(!) failed attempts to get her sign-off, as well as any notes shared with the people responsible for casting.

I guess the Trump lookalike satire guy would not want to go to California then

Ah, so OpenAI does satire. That explains a lot.

I am guessing it's because you are trying to sell the voice as "that" actor voice. I guess if the other voice become popular on its own right (a celebrity) then there is a case to be made.

Did you read the statement? They approached Scarlett twice, including two days before launch. Sam even said himself that Sky sounds like 'HER'.

This isn't actually complicated at all. OpenAI robbed her likeness against her express will.

It's almost certainly not legal exactly because of the surrounding context of openai trying to hire her along with the "her" tweet.

There's not a lot of precedent around voice impersonation, but there is for a very, very similar case against Ford

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midler_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

Amazing case law, thank you! I suspect OpenAI have just realised this, hence the walking back of the “Sky” voice.

I am not a lawyer, but other potentially relevant cases:

https://www.quimbee.com/cases/waits-v-frito-lay-inc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_v._Samsung_Electronics_A....

I mean, unless an investigation can find any criteria used to select this particular actress like "sounds like Scarlett" in an email somewhere, or you know, the head idiot intentionally and publicly posting the title of a movie starring the actress in relation to the soundalike's voice work.

Whether or not what they've done is currently technically illegal, they're priming the public to be pissed off at them. Making enemies of beloved figures from the broader culture is likely to not make OpenAI many friends.

OpenAI has gone the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" route, and it seemed like they might get away with that, but if this results in a lot more stories like this they'll risk running afoul of public opinion and future legislation turning sharply against them.

Problem is, they asked for permission, showing their hand multiple times. Can I say, I'm somewhat relieved to learn that Sam Altman isn't an evil genius.