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Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by loandbehold on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:22PM (#40419852)
Whether Israel is an apartheid state or not is a controversial topic and far from settled. Palestinians are not getting the same rights as Israeli citizens because they don't have Israeli citizenship, just like in any other country. The discrimination is based on citizenship status and not on race. Arab Israelis have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.
Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by umanwizard on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:30PM (#40419944)
If you take over some territory and rule it permanently, and then define the pre-existing population there as non-citizens with no way to change their status, you do not get to count as a democracy. This is what Israel has done in the West Bank.

> The discrimination is based on citizenship status and not on race. Arab Israelis have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

It is based indirectly on race (inasmuch as "Jewish" is a race; maybe "cultural group" would be more accurate), because any Jewish person in the world can become an Israeli citizen, whereas most Arabs have no way to become citizens unless they are in Israel proper, the Golan Heights, or East Jerusalem. I.e. for people who live in the West Bank (outside East Jerusalem), whether they are Israeli citizens is entirely determined by whether they are Jewish.

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:34PM (#40420005)
> If you take over some territory and rule it permanently, and then define the pre-existing population there as non-citizens with no way to change their status, you do not get to count as a democracy

On some timeline this is every population on the planet.

I’m not defending the Nakba. But it’s not a commonly-used exclusionary rule for democracies. If it were, there has never been a democracy on Earth. (And never can be. Everyone lives on territory once occupied by another people.)

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by umanwizard on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:39PM (#40420061)
I’m not talking about the Nakba, I’m talking about the situation in the West Bank today.

It’s horrible that so many Palestinians had to leave during the Nakba, but since the ones who stayed were eventually granted citizenship and legal equality, I think it’s fair to say that Israel proper is administered democratically today — similar to the situation of Native Americans in the U.S.

But people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have no way to become Israeli citizens (unless they are Jewish), despite those territories being controlled by Israel, probably permanently. That is clearly undemocratic.

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:50PM (#40420201)
> That is clearly undemocratic

Agreed. But that doesn’t unmake Israel a democracy.

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by umanwizard on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:53PM (#40420235)
I don't see how there is a meaningful difference "administers large chunks of territory undemocratically" and "is not a democracy" in practice.
Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by JumpCrisscross on Monday May 20, 2024 @05:01PM (#40420337)
> don't see how there is a meaningful difference "administers large chunks of territory undemocratically" and "is not a democracy" in practice

The Federalist Papers are the deep dive. The Wikipedia article is a good start [1].

If you’re excluding classic members of a set with your measure, your measure is inconsistent with the classic set. You may argue Athens wasn’t a true democracy, but that obviously puts your definition of a true democracy in a special bucket.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by umanwizard on Monday May 20, 2024 @05:07PM (#40420421)
If we're quoting Wikipedia:

> South Africa has been a democracy since the end of apartheid in 1994.

People in the present day use the word "democracy" in a way that would exclude either ancient Athens or the Jim Crow-era US. You are the one who's insisting on an unusual definition from thousands of years ago; my definition is the mainstream one. Furthermore, your "classical" definition is irrelevant, since we're talking about Israel the modern state in 2024 which should be judged by present-day standards.

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by dunekid on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @04:28PM (#40433458)
>But people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have no way to become Israeli citizens (unless they are Jewish) >That is clearly undemocratic

Not only undemocratic, but it is running an apartheid. Not to mention the complete denial of right to return for displaced Palestinians, not even acknowledging it.

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by eyelidlessness on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:35PM (#40420012)
South African apartheid specifically utilized this distinction of citizenship. The de facto state, to which all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are subjects, is Israel. This has been true for generations, and it’s going to remain true indefinitely. Keeping those Palestinians stateless doesn’t detract from the comparison to apartheid, it reinforces it.
Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by whimsicalism on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:31PM (#40419963)
At least until 2006 or so it was legal to deny Arab citizens entry to your community or permission to live, provided it was covered by the Admission Committee Law (most communities in Israel are).

Never mind the explicit ethnic-based right of return, land ownership rules, etc. By their own admission, the state frequently makes decisions prioritizing communities of the dominant ethnic group, see for instance 'National Priority Area's.

Honestly, the ethnic favoritism in Israel's government is so widespread and blatant I could just keep listing examples on and on.

Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by wesselbindt on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:27PM (#40419912)
This is incorrect. They very comfortably fall within the definitions set out by ICSPCA, as detailed for example in the famous 280 page Amnesty intenational report, and also the B'Tselem rapport. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of definition.
Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by loandbehold on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:34PM (#40420000)
There are many other reports of similar length and rigor that argue otherwise. In the end none of these reports are 100% impartial. The definitions set out by ICSPCA are not 100% precise and leave much room for interpretation. Did you actually read Amnesty International report in full or are you just citing it because it's supporting "your" side?
Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by wesselbindt on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:36PM (#40420018)
Who carried out those reports?
Re:ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu fo... by genman on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:33PM (#40419987)
I'm sorry, but Amnesty International lost completely its credibility by supporting Putin and Hamas terrorist.