News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by akira2501 on Sunday May 19, 2024 @01:51PM (#40408518)
> What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these?

A nuclear World War 3?

> Let’s say you start pounding blocks

Let's say we just start the peace negotiation process in earnest this time.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by jwr on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:04PM (#40408622)
Peace does not require "negotiation" in this war. There is a clear aggressor: Russia. So things are really simple, at least this once. All that is needed is for Russia to stop murdering Ukrainians and retreat from all Ukrainian territory, and we will have peace.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by hollerith on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:41PM (#40408875)
>All that is needed is for Russia to stop murdering Ukrainians and retreat from all Ukrainian territory

That would be nice, but what are the chances of that happening in your opinion without the US and Europe's promising that Ukraine will never become a member of NATO and the US and Europe's promising to stop supplying weapons to Ukraine?

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:03PM (#40409020)
> That would be nice, but what are the chances of that happening in your opinion without the US and Europe’s promising that Ukraine will never become a member of NATO and the US and Europe’s promising to stop supplying weapons to Ukraine?

There is zero chance the war would take more than a slight pause before resuming in full force with a less-capable Ukraine if Ukraine’s allies promised to stop supplying it with weapons. (The Russo-Georgian War, immediately, and with a slight delay because of temporarily Russia-favorable political conditions that emerged in the interim in Ukraine, the Russo-Ukrainian War are both direct results, in fact, of that kind of accommodationist thought winning the day at the 2008 NATO summit with regard to Russia’s demand at the time that Georgia and Ukraine not have Membership Action Plans extended to them. Fool me once…)

There’s a very good chance that Russia will stop if that does not happen, even if it is unlikely that the current leadership would do so.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by nradov on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:25PM (#40409160)
Realistically that probably won't happen until there is a regime change in Russia. So, the best option for now is to keep giving Ukraine all of the weapons they ask for in order to maintain a stalemate and inflict as many casualties on Russia as possible. Russia has a large population but it's not unlimited; kill enough and eventually the civilians will march on the Kremlin. This may take years.

Ultimately it's up to the Ukrainians what terms they want to negotiate. But it would seem foolish to give up the option of joining NATO and the EU just to gain a temporary peace. If they're going to survive as an independent country rather than a Russian vassal state then they will need alliances with nuclear powers.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by jwr on Monday May 20, 2024 @12:23PM (#40417133)
Chances are small, but I wanted to immediately oppose the "we should start the peace negotiation process" narrative, which often (not necessarily here, but often) implies that Ukraine needs to do something to achieve peace, that Ukraine is somehow responsible for the war and that Ukraine must concede territory.

This narrative is being strongly pushed in various social media by Russian troll farms.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by racional on Monday May 20, 2024 @09:50PM (#40423175)
Another option is a "frozen conflict" -- for Ukraine to accept a cease fire with current front lines, but not to recognize Russia's claims of sovereignty. Leaving open the possibility of a final counteroffensive after Putin croaks. Some 43 percent of Ukrainians are open to some form of negotiations, according to a recent poll (independent of Russia's deranged narratives).
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by jwr on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @03:45AM (#40425266)
> a cease fire with current front lines

That would only serve as an opportunity for Russia to regroup, build up the war machine, and attack again, possibly not just Ukraine.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by racional on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @12:44PM (#40430775)
That's the standard first-pass response, of course.

It could also serve as an opportunity for Ukraine to do the same in reverse -- ultimately leading to a Russian withdraw (many years later but with many lives spared also).

OTOH, a continuation of the status quo (assuming the political climate in Western countries permits the Ukrainians to do so, which is in itself a highly dodgy proposition) is not at all guaranteed to end in Ukraine's interest, and brings certain obvious tail risks to the rest of the world as well.

Ultimately it's a matter for the Ukrainians to decide. My only point is that it's perfectly possible to discuss different options for achieving the same desired end result (which it seems we agree on) -- without having to label these as being in favor of Russian "peace narratives".

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by denton-scratch on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:50PM (#40408937)
Ukraine is not fighting because "The West" won't let them stop; they're fighting because they know what will happen to them if they do stop. Russian soldiers are brutal occupiers. Russian officials have been deporting lots of children from the territory they've occupied.

That is, I can't see Ukraine trying to negotiate some kind of peace-for-land deal. Apart from anything else, any land Russia occupied as part of such a deal would be used to launch a new attack once they've reconstituted their forces.

So any negotiation would be between "The West" and Russia, over Ukraine's heads. And that is the only kind of negotiation that Putin will countenance; he's been very clear that he thinks Ukraine is not a country, it's people are no more than ill-educated Russians, and its leaders are nazis.

Of course, Russia has negotiated with real nazis before; but it's pretty seditious to mention that in public in Russia nowadays.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by bananenpubs on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:32PM (#40408830)
> Peace does not require "negotiation" in this war.

Oh it will. I don't see US and EU propping up the Zelensky regime limitless. (a country us non-US citizens laugh often about, for stopping government operations every couple of years until congress approves _another_ raise of its debt ceiling, just agreed on yet ANOTHER 6B of wasted money!?)

Given Russian endurance and ability to withstand economic hardship & sanctions, along with friendly country support, and Ukrainians losing equipemnt left'n'right, it is a matter of time.

Ugly things to talk about: give up Donbas, give up Crimea, give Zelensky the boot.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by matthewdgreen on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:27PM (#40409173)
Russia isn’t bleeding its economy and military to death in order to win a few patches of land in Eastern Ukraine, and if they are they’re idiots. The only way this war makes sense is if they see these worthless chunks of land as a jumping off point for a larger war of conquest, which is why peace deals aren’t happening.
[dead]
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by oblio on Sunday May 19, 2024 @05:27PM (#40409871)
Yes, it's worthless. Are you a troll or something?

Large parts of the Donbas look like the moon after Russians bombed them. They've sent most of the local men to the slaughterhouse. Industry is gone, mining was obsolete, natural gas resources are less and less valuable as we advance with renewables, etc.

If there is ever a compromise, as a Ukrainian president I'd choose Crimea before Donbas because Crimea is strategically important and protects 80% of the Ukrainian South from invasion.

In an ideal situation, Ukraine should still get it back, because it's Ukrainian territory. But in practical terms, Donbas 2013 was a totally different place to Donbas 2024.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by mvc on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:44PM (#40408891)
And if those regions are given up today and peace is declared between Ukraine and Russia why would Russia not just apply the same strategy tomorrow to destabilise and then annex a big chunk of Georgia/Estonia/Moldova.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by bananenpubs on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:19PM (#40409126)
No one guarantees you anything in life.

USSR was also once told in ~1990 "no NATO expansion to your doorstep". And now look what happens / has already happened due to Atlanticism pushing its agenda.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by tarikjn on Sunday May 19, 2024 @04:00PM (#40409385)
This is a common misconception. It's something that was discussed orally and taken out of its context and is being repeated today [1]. Besides the fact that NATO is a voluntary alliance and not an empire. At one point Russia was even considered for joining NATO.

The Budapest memorandum however was a written agreement, much more meaningful, though sadly not binding.

[1] https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-en...

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:23PM (#40409143)
> USSR was also once told in ~1990 “no NATO expansion to your doorstep”.

No, they weren’t, as even Gorbachev admitted, and even if they had been given private assurance not memorialized in a treaty or even a formal executive agreement, there would be no reasonable expectation of a binding commitment that survived the administrations on each side then in power, much less an actual collapse of the Soviet Union.

It’s not like the Soviet Union didn’t understand the mechanics of how binding international commitments are formed.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by lupusreal on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:29PM (#40408810)
Either Russia is abjectly defeated so they are incapable of fighting, or they are presented with an option which they prefer to continuing the war. The former is extremely difficult (to put it mildly) and the latter is broadly filed under negotiation.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by kelipso on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:24PM (#40408776)
Lol, that's not how war and peace works.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by Detrytus on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:31PM (#40408823)
But Russia has no reason to do that. To end the war you need one of two things to happen: send enough weapons (and possibly soldiers) to Ukraine to force the Russians to retreat, which West is clearly not capable of doing, or you need the negotiations. I would not count on Putin suddenly getting conscience-stricken and saying: "what I did was wrong, please forgive me, I'm ending the war now".
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by squidbeak on Sunday May 19, 2024 @01:58PM (#40408563)
World War 3 hasn't broken out despite Ukraine possesing JDAMs.

Ukraine needs a powerful bargaining position before entering negotiations, and though it's regrettable this is the case, a powerful bargaining position derives from power on the battlefield. The best route to peace is therefore to give Ukraine as deadly a sting as possible.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by oblio on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:03PM (#40408604)
Russia's not going to use nukes, for the same reasons the US didn't use them in Korea or Vietnam or the USSR didn't in Afganistan.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by hollerith on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:09PM (#40408664)
There was serious discussion in Washington of nuking China after China's entry into the Korean war. (Specifically, nuking concentrations of rice fields, causing starvation until the Beijing relents, at which time Washington would provide food aid.)

When in the 1960s tensions between Moscow and Peking rose, Moscow asked Washington if Washington would be okay with Moscow's nuking China. (Washington replied with a firm no.)

Although Russia is probably not going to resort to nukes, the risk is high enough that I wish my country (the US) had started drastically increasing American preparedness for nuclear war when it started sending military aid to Ukraine.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by casenmgreen on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:45PM (#40408902)
Given the catastrophe risk involved in their use, there is much to be alarmed at simply to consider the possibilities of accident use - miscommunication, false alarms, broken technology, etc.

It takes more than one thing going wrong at the same time, for an accident to happen, but that happens - that's why we have car accidents - only here we're talking about a potentially civilization/climate ending accident.

Better not to be in that situation in the first place.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by oblio on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:22PM (#40409137)
This logic fails at first scrutiny, look up Salami tactics.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by casenmgreen on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:43PM (#40408887)
The only viable peaceful solution is Russian withdrawal, and Putin has made it clear this is off the menu.

Anything else rewards and encourages the use of invasion, profoundly encourages China to invade Taiwan, and North Korean and Iran.

It will also anyway only be a temporary peace; Putin will try again in some years time. Anyone want to trust him when he promises not to - again?

The West has been forced to spend vast amounts of money, in many ways, and millions of people have been forced to flee Ukraine and resettle in the West, and about 500,000 people have been maimed or killed.

To not win after such costs is to lose.

It also means all nations which have a threatening neighbour need their own nuclear weapons. That's in the end will lead to their use.

There is also a more personal reason.

The world has a lot of shit in it, and people generally are increasingly depressed in their normal, day to day lives, because of it. We are not happy.

Stopping Putin would bright a vast ray of hope and a vision of a decent future in our lives.

Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by polotics on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:04PM (#40408618)
I don't think Putin can reasonably enter any kind of peace negotiations now: he's clearly losing Crimea, and the rest of the territory the troops under his command was able to invade does not at all resonate with the Russian people. Also there is the question of reparations: the Russians have already done more damage than the 350B$ of foreign currency their central bank has (had?) oversea...
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by postalrat on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:15PM (#40408709)
"he's clearly losing Crimea". how?
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:54PM (#40408962)
Where is the Black Sea Fleet?
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by rasz on Sunday May 19, 2024 @10:11PM (#40411458)
russia gained two more submarines just last night.
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by MaxPock on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:23PM (#40408762)
Where do you get your news from if I may ask ?
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by polotics on Sunday May 19, 2024 @03:30PM (#40409196)
I recommend you check out https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/new/ ... but only if you're ready to see some fried Buryat...
Re:Russia's glide bombs devastating Ukraine's cities on the ... by oblio on Sunday May 19, 2024 @05:24PM (#40409853)
> Let's say we just start the peace negotiation process in earnest this time.

Also, there can be no peace between the sheep and the wolf. Russia believes Ukraine does not and cannot exists. How can that ever lead to long lasting peace and long term territorial integrity for Ukraine?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich