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Re:It's an Age of Marvels by boxed on Monday May 13, 2024 @09:37AM (#40343215)
What is the cost we are paying that you imply is too high?
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by ks2048 on Monday May 13, 2024 @12:04PM (#40344816)
People mention environmental costs. There are also geopolitical costs. I write this from Guatemala, where 70 years ago, a budding 10-year-old democracy was destroyed so that Americans could continue to get cheap bananas. And the country never really recovered.

Of course, from technology and "globalization", I think the abundance of American supermarkets would still have occurred, but this has been optimized at the expense of human rights and wages of people throughout the world.

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by oblio on Monday May 13, 2024 @04:15PM (#40347867)
> I write this from Guatemala, where 70 years ago, a budding 10-year-old democracy was destroyed so that Americans could continue to get cheap bananas. And the country never really recovered.

Worse, they mocked it and still do with terms such as "banana republic". They haven't even learned any better.

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by bee_rider on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:02AM (#40343507)
Shipping blueberries around the world can’t be great for the environment.
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by anonporridge on Monday May 13, 2024 @12:30PM (#40345094)
There's no intrinsic reason why it can't be.

It entirely depends on how many externalities are created as debt to the future in order to ship blueberries around the world. Internalize those externalities and the grinding force of the market will eventually eliminate or mitigate them.

The future we should all be striving for is one of extreme abundance for everyone, not forcing everyone into hair shirts.

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by Retric on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:16AM (#40343656)
Why not? Bulk shipping is really efficient, local farmers markets can easily be worse for the environment than going to a supermarket. A Semi moving 35 tons at 7 MPG is 25 times more fuel efficient vs a ford F-150 moving 1/2 ton at 20 MPG and trains or boats are even better.

In the end fuel costs money so more efficient logistics is often good for the environment. Buying local makes a lot more sense if you live in a farming community than a port city.

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by bee_rider on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:51AM (#40344012)
Replacing shipped blueberries with locally farmed ones definitely could be a wash or a loss, environmentally, for sure I agree there. But we have relatively efficient industrial scale farming in the US as well, if we admitted that blueberries are seasonal we could grow them in big efficient farms and then just ship them less far.
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by ghaff on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:12AM (#40344252)
A lot of fruits freeze pretty well too. When I'm in Maine at the right time of year and big boxes of "wild" local (low-bush) blueberries are for sale, often they're already frozen. I agree that local fruits during their short local season can be pretty good but stuff that's shipped in or frozen isn't necessarily bad. Depends on the produce.
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by VelesDude on Monday May 13, 2024 @07:59PM (#40350025)
In a previous job, I did the math for shipping goods from Melbourne to Perth here in Australia via freight train. It worked out to be 1 litre of fuel per ton moved 500km. In imperial, that is 1 ton at 930MPG! That efficiency is mind blowing but it does rely on a lot of goods to be moved to gain that scale efficiency.

This is where the last mile problem comes in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_mile_(transportation)

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by boxed on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:37AM (#40344517)
For sure the cost of carbon and other pollution should be factored in. But I don't think the externalities are that large really. I would be surprised if the cost would go up more than 20% if we had a proper carbon tax in place. At least after the market adapts.
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by bee_rider on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:58AM (#40344754)
Yeah, a carbon tax is the way to go. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you are right that the externalities aren’t huge on this one, but it would be good to take them into account regardless.
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by tekla on Monday May 13, 2024 @12:33PM (#40345133)
The externality of a locally grown blueberry is incredibly higher than industrial farmed blueberries
Re:It's an Age of Marvels by genewitch on Monday May 13, 2024 @01:16PM (#40345649)
lol, what? I have blueberry bushes in my yard, they were like $5. i put them in the ground and then ignored them for years. It is true that not every piece of land can do what i did here, but these sweeping "marvel at the advance of farming" ideas are silly to me. I had a peach, plum, orange, and fig tree in my back yard growing up in california. When we sold the house the new owners tore them down. I think that's sad. Fresh, free fruit every year?

Now, growing enough of one thing to be able to sell it to turn a profit might have "greater externality" but even that might not be true depending on the methods used. There are composting farms where people bring their refuse - specifically "anything that was alive recently" can go in the compost, and this will provide nutrients and soil amendments in a sustainable way to that farm, which can then provide nutrition to the community it serves.

You can't feed the planet with a small, self-sustaining farm. But this idea that it's a net negative needs to DIAF.

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by RecycledEle on Monday May 13, 2024 @01:12PM (#40345590)
> Shipping blueberries around the world can’t be great for the environment.

Look at the price to ship something.

The cost of fuel burned can not be greater than the shipping cost, and it is probably much less.

Re:It's an Age of Marvels by bee_rider on Monday May 13, 2024 @02:41PM (#40346733)
The cost of fuel could be higher than the shipping cost, if we include things like:

* the cost of cleaning up all the carbon we’ve spewed out

* the cost of fossil fuel subsidies

* the political cost of doing business with oil producing countries, many of which seem to be fairly hostile