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Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @10:05AM (#40274842)
From a thermodynamic point of view, it should be noted that compressed air does not actually store energy! The internal energy of a compressed gas is from the kinetic energy of its molecules, and this is a function only of temperature(*).

What a compressed gas represents is not stored energy, but stored (negative) entropy. It is a resource that allows low grade heat to be converted to work at high efficiency. This is what's to happen in this facility: the heat of compression is separated out and stored, then used to reheat the compressed air at discharge time. The energy is actually being stored in that thermal store.

But there are other ways to do this that don't involve compressed air storage. Instead, after the heat of compression is removed and stored the compressed air could be reexpanded, recovering some of the work. This would leave the gas much colder than when it started. This cold could be stored (heating the gas back to its initial temperature) and the gas sent around again. To discharge, the temperature difference between the hot and cold stores could be exploited.

This is called "pumped thermal storage". I believe Google/Alphabet has/had a group looking at this (called Malta). It has no geographical limitations.

(*) Highly compressed air will store some energy because the molecules become so crowded some energy is stored in intermolecular repulsion, but that should be a small effect in this system.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by crazygringo on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:13PM (#40276283)
I understand what you're saying, but your claim seems misleading to me.

Compressing air absolutely does store energy. It takes work to compress it, and work will be done when it is allowed to expand.

Yes, one way of measuring the stored energy is by the resulting increased temperature. Compressing air necessarily raises its temperature. And then if you want to you can transfer that heat elsewhere, go ahead. That's how air conditioners and refrigerators work, after all.

But in the basic case, it seems entirely accurate to say that compressing air does actually store energy. Just like raising a heavy object against gravity stores energy.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:21PM (#40276378)
It doesn't store energy in the sense that all that work you did compressing it doesn't increase its internal energy. It just has the energy it started with, floating around in the atmosphere. Now, some of that energy can be converted to work, if the air is adiabatically expanded, but particularly at high compression it's not large compared to the energy that went into compressing the air (and that was dissipated as heat when the hot compressed air was cooled.)
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by crazygringo on Monday May 06, 2024 @01:03PM (#40276797)
But it does increase its internal energy. Its temperature goes up.

Obviously if you let the compressed air cool, then you're letting the energy dissipate. So if you want to preserve all the energy, don't do that.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @01:46PM (#40277309)
The air that is stored underground has been cooled, so yes, the energy that was added isn't there.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by KorematsuFredt on Monday May 06, 2024 @02:00PM (#40277498)
Is compressed air in itself source of energy ? Or does it depend on the external air pressure as well ? For example I compress air in a canister and move it to outer space or deep underwater, does the energy we can exploit out of it goes up or down ?
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by jmolinski on Monday May 06, 2024 @11:30PM (#40282075)
Yes, if you take such a container into space, the gauge pressure (pressure relative to ambient atmospheric pressure) goes up. A cold gas thruster is a type of rocket engine that is basically a pressurized tank of gas with a valve connected to a propelling nozzle. The nozzle takes a high-pressure, low-velocity gas and converts it to a low-pressure, high-velocity gas, and directs its output generating thrust (which is a reaction force - Newton's 3rd law). The lower the ambient pressure, the higher the expansion ratio of the nozzle can be, which results in a higher output velocity of the gas, which directly increases the thrust. It would give you a higher specific impulse, which is a measure of fuel efficiency for reaction (thrust) engines.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by opwieurposiu on Monday May 06, 2024 @02:54PM (#40278177)
You can store about 10kWh of heat energy in your water heater at home.

https://www.pvh2o.com/faq

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by schiffern on Monday May 06, 2024 @10:44PM (#40281808)
>Compressing air necessarily raises its temperature. And then if you want to you can transfer that heat elsewhere, go ahead. That's how air conditioners and refrigerators work, after all.

The oh-so-clever trick is to transfer heat elsewhere while you're compressing the gas, so you actually reduce back-loading on the piston instead of having it 'fight' the temperature rise. This can be accomplished via water spray, or by compressing a gas bubble that's surrounded by water (eg in the trompe).

By continuously removing heat as you compress the gas, it effectively acts like a train of compressors and intercoolers with an infinite number of stages, ie true isothermal compression. No magic, just physics.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40278128

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @10:47PM (#40281824)
I want to note that in this system, where the heat is stored to reheat the gas at discharge time, you want to produce heat during compression. Doing adiabatic compression means you are storing more heat, and therefore can produce more energy at discharge time, than you could with isothermal compression (for a given storage volume and pressure.)

This is unlike traditional CAES, where the air is reheated by burning a fuel. There, fuel use is minimized by isothermal compression.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by SkyPuncher on Tuesday May 07, 2024 @08:58AM (#40284918)
It’s absolutely misleading. The compressed air absolutely has potential energy. Nail guns, air wrenches, etc convert that potential energy into kinetic energy.

It seems like either this is describing an additional energy storage/extraction method that’s possible with these systems. Either to improve the efficiency or something that’s actually far more efficient than utilizing kinetic energy compressed air can create.

It’s kind of like saying the water in a hydropower plant doesn’t store energy. The turbines aren’t extracting energy from the water itself. They’re extracting energy from gravity acting on water. It doesn’t matter if the water is nearly freezing or nearly boiling, it has roughly the same amount of hydropower available.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Tuesday May 07, 2024 @11:55AM (#40287327)
Your analogy is nonsense. Water in a hydropower system falls from a higher gravitational potential to a lower. When a pumped hydro system is charged, the water is moved up and energy is stored in its potential.

This is not the case in a CAES system. The internal energy of air, which is the kinetic energy of its molecules, is independent of pressure. It's only a function of temperature. The internal energy of the air is unchanged by a process that increases its pressure without increasing temperature. So, no energy has been stored in the air.

What has been done is reduction of the entropy of the air. So, it is now possible to convert some of that internal energy (which was always there) to work by expanding the air. The air would end up even colder than the initial air.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by zamadatix on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:29PM (#40276452)
If I'm remembering this correctly from physics class then in math terms this is described as U=C*n*R*T where U is the energy, the constant C varies depending on the degrees of freedom the molecules of the gas have, n is the molar amount of the gas, R is the ideal gas constant, and T is the temperature. From that perspective it seems impossible to raise the pressure without also raising n resulting in a higher U even if you maintained a constant T while you did so?
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:50PM (#40276645)
I'm talking about internal energy per mass of air, not per volume. Sorry that wasn't clear.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by foobarian on Monday May 06, 2024 @11:57AM (#40276090)
I'm trying to reconcile how a consumer-grade compressor fits into this. Clearly such a device can compress a few gallons of gas, which could be allowed to cool to room temperature, and then used to spin a small dynamo. This action clearly converts some amount of energy, but where does it come from? Perhaps the problem is we're not looking at a closed system at that point.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:31PM (#40276466)
The room temperature compressed air still has some internal energy, and some of that energy can be converted to work by expanding the air through a turbine. The air at the outlet of the turbine will be really cold. Expanding compressed air through expanders like this is part of how air liquefaction plants operate.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by gparke on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:16PM (#40276312)
I think you are right about the closed system. When the compressed air spins the dynamo, it will cool, and then absorb heat from the environment. In an ideal, lossless scenario, that heat is equal to the heat given off when it cooled. So maybe you can view it as a battery that stores the energy in the environment?
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by lazide on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:04PM (#40276173)
If you empty that compressed gas, it cools everything it comes in contact with. Room temperature gas still has a lot of thermal energy.

The effect the prior poster was discussing is most apparent at large scales when someone is doing actual efficiency analysis - compressed air is not a very efficient way of storing or transporting energy in most contexts. No one would use compressed air for a power grid, because it would quickly be apparent how terrible it is.

It is however a great way to transfer and use energy in many industrial contexts, as turbines and pistons using high pressure compressed air can be very compact while also being very powerful, and have built in cooling.

At the level of typical household use, the efficiency effects aren’t notable. No one is going to care or even notice if it cost 1/2 cent of electricity (at the compressor) to use that air impact wrench vs 1/10th of a cent to use an electric one. Especially when the electric one is heavier and has less torque.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by foota on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:18PM (#40276346)
Would it make sense to compress air, discard the heat generated, and then use the compressed air later to increase the efficiency of a turbine on a combined cycle plant?
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:24PM (#40276400)
Yes, that's how old style CAES systems worked (although those were not combined cycle). There are two of them.

http://www.eseslab.com/ESsensePages/CAES-page

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by kobalsky on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:07PM (#40276213)
the article doesn't mention how heat is stored, it just says "the system extracts heat from the air and stores it above ground for reuse".

do you know how they do it?

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:17PM (#40276327)
I don't know in detail, but they could do something like this: compress the air, making it hot, then run the hot air through a packed bed of small objects (pebbles, bits of iron). As the air goes through the bed the heat is transferred to the material. This ends with a temperature gradient across the bed (hot at one end, cooler at the other). To discharge, the flow of air is reversed: in at the cool end, out at the hot end.

This sort of design (a counterflow heat exchanger, basically) keeps the delta-T at each point low, so the system has low entropy production.

A similar heat exchanger could be designed with a liquid thermal storage medium, where the air and the liquid are flowed past each other in opposite directions (separated by solid walls, most likely). The hot storage tank would be insulated. An advantage of this design is the pressure of the liquid storage tanks needn't be high, unlike the vessel containing the pebbles in the earlier described system.

All these may need to dump some waste heat to the environment as a consequence of inefficiencies in the system.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by danhau on Monday May 06, 2024 @11:04AM (#40275516)
Insightful, thanks!
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @12:18PM (#40276345)
I should add that there's also some energy stored lifting water. So this is not entirely a thermal store. I didn't run the numbers, but I guess the thermal store stores > energy than is stored lifting water.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by schiffern on Monday May 06, 2024 @02:50PM (#40278128)
Funny, when I saw the headline I thought, "I hope they're using a trompe / Canot compressor or similar for efficient isothermal compression and expansion."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50fJ8Av_g7Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvf0lD5xzH0

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27066295

Sad to see people are misinterpreting the cleverness of isothermal compression, and thinking it's "just" thermal storage.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Monday May 06, 2024 @02:55PM (#40278193)
How does that have anything to do with what I was saying? The internal energy (per unit mass) of the compressed air at given conditions is not a function of how those conditions were reached.
Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by schiffern on Monday May 06, 2024 @10:20PM (#40281656)
>The internal energy... is not a function of how those conditions were reached.

How the conditions are reached makes a big difference in efficiency.

I'm baffled at why you focus on minor implementation details like internal energy at a particular snapshot in time, as opposed to highly salient metrics like overall round-trip system efficiency.

Re:Giant Compressed-Air Battery in the Australian Outback by pfdietz on Tuesday May 07, 2024 @09:13AM (#40285049)
Ideally, the round trip efficiency of abiabatic CAES is 100%, as would be the ideal round trip efficiency of isothermal CAES.

What isothermal CAES (with heat storage) would require is a larger storage volume per unit of energy storage capacity, since less heat is generated during the ideal compression. That heat generation is not inefficiency, it's something you want!

Only if the heat is discarded and you reheat with fuel do you benefit from isothermal compression.