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Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by jl6 on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @02:49AM (#40061276)
The title is misleading, at least on the IQ claim. The underlying study was observational and did not claim causation.

Medical journals and their associated media summaries are awash with low-certainty studies that get de-nuanced and overhyped. These studies are relatively easy to do - not to denigrate the work put in by the original study authors (it’s not their fault the press sensationalize their work). But for strong causative claims you ideally would have blinded controlled randomized trials. Sometimes such trials are not feasible, but that doesn’t mean you get to claim causation anyway just because the work to prove it is too hard.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by dathinab on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @03:54AM (#40061702)
It's less misleading then you might think.

There are cases (enough to not be treated as just some random coincidence; with and without vaccination) where people after Covid had a sever reduction of cognitive abilities that they have problems filling out relatively simple forms. So we can clearly speak of a reduction of IQ.

And while there is a lot of research needed and a lot of open questions and already half a year (or so?) into the pandemic we did know from how we observed COVID affecting the brain that it likely will cause a reduction in cognitive abilities at least in some cases which matches the (very many) observations we had since then.

This also matches what we know from other older studies about other virus infections which have some similarity with covid, e.g. causing Neuroinflammation. So every thing we observe and do know about the underlying mechanics implies that there is very likely a causation. (Through we need more studies for Neuroinflammation.)

So scientist do need to research it more and do need to pin down the exact mechanisms this causes reduction of cognitive abilities in some cases to largely varying degrees and how much of it is a direct and a indirect e.g. psychological effect.

But for everyone else it best to assume that getting COVID might reduce IQ if they are unlucky. Because if you aren't a doctor, scientist or similar but just a random person who got COVID it kind doesn't matter if your IQ gets reduced by COVID directly or indirectly or just correlated due to some other factor you don't know about and in turn can't systematically avoid.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by freehorse on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:36AM (#40061955)
I do not think IQ tests are meant or designed to measure effects from illness. We do not say that IQ drops when you are sick with the flu and have high fever that makes it hard to think. IQ does not drop when you wake up groggy in the morning up until you drink coffee. I am not sure why people use IQ here instead of referring specifically to brain fog and other symptoms of post-COVID infection. IQ does not drop when you get sick and does not increase when you get treatment. If that is the case, then it is even worse measure than it is supposed to be, because it does not measure anything remotely stable.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by DoughnutHole on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:00AM (#40062121)
Who says there’s even anything stable to measure?

If “intelligence” is just the degree/quality of someone’s brain function then your intelligence does drop when your brain function is impaired, and you would expect that to be picked up in an intelligence test.

Culturally we may want to imagine intelligence as something constant and innate to somebody’s soul, but in reality it’s innate to a fragile and fickle organ inside your skull.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by freehorse on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:16AM (#40062225)
> Culturally we may want to imagine intelligence as something constant and innate to somebody’s soul, but in reality it’s innate to a fragile and fickle organ inside your skull.

Which is also my issue with IQ tests and the relationship of the tests and what they measure. But that changes nothing: IQ tests are not supposed to measure _that_ variability of when you get sick. Or you wake up. Or you are drunk. It makes no sense to use a psychometric test completely out of the context of which it was validated and meant to be used, because then the results are not interpretable. People with that kind of post-covid syndrom have an illness and experience cognitive deficits because of that, but using IQ to measure intelligence in that case when what you actually (want to) measure is brain fog is absurd. That should require a brain fog screening, not an IQ test.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by selfie on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @06:36AM (#40062736)
Except chronic fatigue / long covid could affect IQ as tested. It might be that you have the CPU but the power supply isn't up to voltage, so to speak, so the CPU has to run slow.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by Vecr on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:46AM (#40062369)
One of the major uses of IQ tests is to measure brain damage, otherwise why would they be mostly calibrated in the downwards direction? Who do you think pays for these things?
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by tivert on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @09:23AM (#40064228)
> otherwise why would they be mostly calibrated in the downwards direction? Who do you think pays for these things?

I always assumed it was because there are people born with impaired intellectual abilities, and having some measure of how impaired they are would be significant for things like edibility for benefits and management of their condition (e.g. goals for the school system).

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by k__ on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:17AM (#40062228)
The tests themselves are misleading.

If I do one sober, I have an IQ of 110, if I do it with my ADHD meds, it goes up to 120.

Is that because the meds make me smarter? No, it's because I don't lose attention after 10 minutes of test and can concentrate until the end. However, the numbers imply otherwise.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by fireflash38 on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @06:48AM (#40062805)
One could argue that concentration is an aspect of intelligence.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by atwrk on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @07:30AM (#40063081)
It isn't though, but both intelligence and concentration are necessary for actual performance. Intelligence is only a potential.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by spacebacon on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @07:44AM (#40063208)
Concentration is an aspect of applied intelligence. To take an IQ test is to measure applied intelligence.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by mcphage on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @07:56AM (#40063327)
> Is that because the meds make me smarter?

At some level, IQ tests measure your ability to take IQ tests. So it would make sense that your measured IQ would go up when you're on ADHD meds, since those will obviously have an effect on your ability to take IQ tests.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by lostmsu on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @12:11PM (#40066683)
Maybe yes, they do. Have you seen this famous article after GPT-2 came out? https://www.skynettoday.com/editorials/humans-not-concentrat...
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by cies on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:49AM (#40062047)
> But for everyone else it best to assume that getting COVID might reduce IQ if they are unlucky.

Why assume it if it's not proven yet? We had crazy assumptions on the way lightning worked, I'm glad we have empirical natural sciences now to counter these "wide spread assumptions".

Wrt covid and IQ. Say that during covid IQs measurably dropped: why says its not the WFH, the fear that was rampant or the mRNA vaccine that was massively injected? There for we need bigger studies, control groups, randomization. All of this is there for good reasons (and a lot of this was skipped in the development of mRNA vaccines for a bad reason: fear).

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by CiteXieAlAlyEtc on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:36AM (#40062318)
Seconding the sentiment here. Quibbling about "causal" being used in the title aside, we're building more observational evidence that there's negative cognitive effects associated with covid and long covid.

Zhao et al '24 [0] comes immediately to mind; operating on a radically different set of people and data sets from Al-Aly and the gang, they find substantial differences in simple reaction time between covid and no-covid groups.

It seems we're in a phase of the pandemic where denying long tail effects is going to become more prominent as concerning evidence continues to pile up. The name of the game is still to reduce your infection count as much as possible. Stay safe out there, share aerosols unprotected at your own peril.

[0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5... "Long COVID is associated with severe cognitive slowing: a multicentre cross-sectional study"

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by aredox on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:03AM (#40061757)
That's why the most important element in science is replication - direct (repeating the same experiment) and indirect (refining the original experiment, or testing for the opposite result, or an alternative - here we could test reflexes instead of IQ).

And here there is already a lot of replication for several years - plus direct observation of bleeding into the brain.

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/2024/trinity-team-di...

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by stuaxo on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:45AM (#40062014)
Thanks for this link on brain fog, I had that for a year after getting Covid early before vaccines were available.

I know there was work recently that found blood tests can find various markers of long covid, I'd like to get this done - but it's not something widely available.

A relative has been getting strange post-viral like symptoms since before Xmas (though no obvious Covid infection), would be great to get them tested too.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by peteradio on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @08:42AM (#40063824)
Good study design trumps replication. If you construct a shitty misleading study and everybody jumps on the hype train to replicate you've netted negative on the replication axis.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by p0w3n3d on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @03:12AM (#40061471)
I experienced some limitations of cognitive abilities but not sure was it due to COVID or some sort of depression
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by shutupnerd0000 on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @03:15AM (#40061492)
That settles it then. Causation proved.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by varjag on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:10AM (#40062186)
I too have lost solid 20 points immediately after infection. Took the test precisely because the fall was so sharp and deep. Scoff all you want but for me it's settled.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by kelipso on Friday April 19, 2024 @01:33AM (#40083721)
Yeah, same thing here. Pretty significant drop in cognitive abilities I feel like.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by camgunz on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @03:50AM (#40061684)
It says "studies suggest"; how much more hedging do you want?
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by eru on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @08:35PM (#40071718)
The studies don't actually 'suggest' any causality. Just like the studies in question don't suggest that the moon is made of cheese. So you wouldn't want to write either in a headline.

'Covid infections associated with IQ drops and years of brain aging, studies suggest'.

You can even remove the 'studies suggest' part in that case to get just 'Covid infections associated with IQ drops and years of brain aging'

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by throwaway48476 on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @03:51AM (#40061691)
There's a lot of data on the cognitive effects of elevated CO2 exposure. The years of masking would likely have a similar effect.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by fxtentacle on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:13AM (#40061817)
That must be why everyone in Japan is an idiot ;P They've been wearing masks on the daily commute since long before Covid. /s
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by orwin on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:28AM (#40061909)
And why surgeons are stupid and have fine motricity issues, with 4 hours shift wearing masks nonstop!
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by dukeyukey on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:37AM (#40061960)
I'll bet surgeons wear masks for more time than most people did during COVID, but we don't see surgeon IQs tanking.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by throwaway48476 on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @03:52PM (#40069358)
Surgical masks are for droplets, not air filtration.

The medical grade face mask respirators have electric fans to provide air flow as well to prevent precisely this.

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by aloisdg on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @05:46AM (#40062368)
Although, significant increase in CO2 concentrations are noted with routinely used face-masks, the levels still remain within the NIOSH limits for short-term use. Therefore, there should not be a concern in their regular day-to-day use by people.

https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s128...

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by rjmunro on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:40AM (#40061973)
Could it be just a correlation?

Maybe something like people with lower IQ are less likely to do a job where they can work from home so they are more likely to have been exposed to the virus?

Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by jonathanstrange on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @04:58AM (#40062107)
The article mentions studies that measure IQ before and after a Covid infection, it's hard to see how working from home or not could be relevant for these.
Re:Covid infections are causing IQ drops and years of brain ... by gn4d on Wednesday April 17, 2024 @02:58PM (#40068756)
cope