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Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by daghamm on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:12AM (#39987463)
China is still ruled by communism, the goverment has a majority share in every company.

That's bad for entrepreneurs, but also means that they can have the entire power of CCP behind them. There are tons of example where a small company started by stealing from western competitors then suddenly produced a huge pile of cash out of nowhere to bought those competitors and took over their marketshare in the west.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by jfim on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:17AM (#39987486)
Do you have examples of such companies? I'm curious to see which industries they were in.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by slowmotiony on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:58AM (#39987749)
The boss of ARM China was fired by the company board, decided he has a different opinion on the matter, changed the locks to the office and just stopped communicating with the rest of the company. The courts sided with him, then when SoftBank wanted to acquire them, the company staff just left, took all the IP and started a new company.

https://www.semianalysis.com/p/the-semiconductor-heist-of-th... https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/ousted-arm-china-...

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by ametrau on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @06:30AM (#39989110)
To be fair it wasn’t actually retarded because no one could foresee China stealing arm’s IP.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by red-iron-pine on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @09:23AM (#39990435)
is that sarcasm? China and stealing IP are like cookies and milk
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by ametrau on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:55PM (#39994410)
Yes it is sarcasm.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by nebula8804 on Thursday April 11, 2024 @01:37PM (#40004729)
More like tea and baozi :P
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by red-iron-pine on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:59AM (#40013699)
youtiao and soymilk?
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by nebula8804 on Thursday April 11, 2024 @01:36PM (#40004723)
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. China has taken that to heart lol.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by qsort on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:59AM (#39987757)
The CCP is communist like I'm Chinese. They're just run-of-the-mill nationalist authoritarians.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by daliusd on Thursday April 11, 2024 @12:00AM (#39998253)
Which communist regime has not been nationalist authoritarian? Yes, in theory it is different thing but somehow in practice it always ends up like this.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by lazide on Thursday April 11, 2024 @01:41PM (#40004768)
Well, there is authoritarianism and then there ‘a spy in every phone, internet Great Wall, re-education camps, social credit score’ authoritarianism no?
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by RangerScience on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:23AM (#39987522)
/Personally/, I’d attribute that more to authoritarianism than communism, but the two have been commingled since Lenin so it’s not necessarily an important difference.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by non-chalad on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:33AM (#39987589)
Isn't communism supposed to be achieved through authoritarianism, after which the state "withers away" [sic]?
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by RangerScience on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:38AM (#39987615)
AFAIK (“Seeing like a State”), that’s specific to the Leninist modality. I very well could be misinformed, but, the book mentions essentially a moment where democratic-socialism was co-opted by authoritarian communism (Leninism), so that’s what the world ended up with.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by blackeyeblitzar on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @03:47AM (#39988076)
The CCP might follow that modality as they are “Marxist-Leninist”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by defrost on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @04:06AM (#39988186)
Were, not Are ... from your own link:

> Marxism–Leninism was the first official ideology of the CCP.

Mao Zedong Thought was some time ago and since then various directions the CCP has taken have been criticized as being un-Marxist and a betrayal of basic Marxist values.

The Authoritarian edge has always been there in the CCP, ebbing and flowing with the years .. but that part is distinctly un-(classical)-communism.

Like Capitalism "Twue Communism" has never really existed, even the big names in modern "communism" have said on the record that they represent authoritarian "on behalf of the people" (sort of) socialist control as a neccessary means on the way to a true workers paradise (barf) .. you know, a classic bait and switch to mask a system being just another variation of top down control.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by cmrdporcupine on Thursday April 11, 2024 @01:35AM (#39998713)
That's not even in Leninism, no. Read Lenin's "State & Revolution" and you will definitely come away with a different impression -- he speaks openly about the abolition of the authoritarian state and a radical democracy... just not a parliamentary one.

Though clearly what happened in the USSR in the 20s was something different from what he wrote. What you saw in Russia in that period was a response to an ongoing civil war, followed by the rise of Stalin.. who, yes, really did believe in brutal authoritarianism.

All these Stalinist states (and I would classify China this way too) will pay lip service to Leninism as a way to seek ideological legitimacy. But their "official" readings of Marx and Lenin are very... creative... shall we say.

But it's 1:30am and I should no be getting into this argument.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by tcmart14 on Thursday April 11, 2024 @03:02PM (#40005606)
For sure, there is more nuance that happens here. Some of what the early Soviet government authorized during the Russian Civil War with the Whites was not all that different from what Lincoln authorized for the Union during the American civil war. So I give some leeway to Lenin on that. For sure, Lenin never intended Stalin to get power. After all, Lenin made Stalin party secretary general or something like that, which was supposed to be a joke position with no real authority or minimal amount of power. Pretty much after the Russian Civil War, Lenin was pretty much perpetually sick and pretty much couldn't see his interpretation to the end. So, I do think had Lenin lived, the USSR would have been much different than what we saw, however I don't know if it would been much better, a little better or worst. That would take engaging in too many hypothetical of history. But I think it is fair to say, we can't graft what the USSR became under Stalin as to what the USSR would have been if Lenin would have lived.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by cmrdporcupine on Thursday April 11, 2024 @03:09PM (#40005687)
I personally subscribe to the Trotskyist analysis that the root cause of the rot that led to Stalinism was the isolation of the revolution in one country, and nothing Lenin could have personally have done would have made a difference once the German revolution failed. They were politically and economically isolated, and unable to effectively administer governance, and if it hadn't been Stalin's brutal form of dictatorship, the state would have either fallen apart or some other "Socialism In One Country" dogma + authoritarianism would have entered the fray.

Stalin rose through the ranks by being a seemingly "competent" administrator who restored the power of the old Tsarist bureaucracy to "get things done."

But in general, Lenin gets a bad rap for the awful things his successor did.

You'll note that Putin admires Stalin but loathes Lenin. Even bizarrely singling Lenin out for his positions on Ukraine and the national question etc in his crazy speech justifying their aggression on the eve of their invasion.

It's a horrible tragedy of history in which millions died and all of eastern Europe fell under a terrible dark iron curtain which took the name "communism" but the name is effectively irrelevant. What it really was was a broken down highly authoritarian single party state that used the badge of "socialism" to lend itself legitimacy while doing very awful things in the name of Russian nationalism, certain individuals, the Party, etc. etc. Kleptocratic clique under the guise of a revolutionary state.

As we can see in China today the actual economic political model doesn't even matter. They'll use the name "communism" even when what they're doing is absolutely savagely market driven, or something else, like the quasi-theocracy in North Korea.

What they labelled as socialism in the East bears almost no resemblance to what socialists in the West advocated. But the label of "communism" will forever be marred by what these people did.

EDIT: A good classic book on this topic is "Leninism under Lenin" by Marcel Liebmann (https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/908-leninism-under-leni...) -- now, whether that old book can stand the test of time now that more historical records from that period are open, I don't know. I'd be curious to see a (non-ideologically motivated) Russian historian with access to records from the Revolution take it apart.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/mandel/1975/xx/liebman.html

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by tcmart14 on Thursday April 11, 2024 @06:44PM (#40007587)
Thanks for the book recommendation, I will definitely check it out! I personally enjoy reading Russian history, it is fascinating and highly complex. It is also just revealing on how much society ideologically focuses on certain sets of history. Like in Russia, focusing on Stalin as the ultimate baddie of Russia. While Stalin sure as hell wasn't a good guy. There isn't a whole unique to his form of brutal-ism compared to the Tsarists before the USSR. The KGB of the time were doing essentially the same things the Tsarist secret police were doing before them. Many of the Tsars were also extremely brutal. Russia really just had gotten a bad hand of leadership for most of the past 1,000 years.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by dvfjsdhgfv on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:53AM (#39987716)
The reason why communism is always associated with authoritarianism is mainly the process by which it is introduced: it is impossible that all citizens agree that a state becomes communist so it has to be introduced by force. And once you get this power over the lives of all your citizens, you don't want to give it back (which also makes sense because they could overthrow communism).

The only societies where communism works without authoritarianism are communes like the Longo Maï where people come by choice, not by force.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by Kbelicius on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @03:40AM (#39988015)
> The reason why communism is always associated with authoritarianism is mainly the process by which it is introduced: it is impossible that all citizens agree that a state becomes communist

All new systems are introduced by force, even capitalism. Do you think that at one point in the past everybody in Britain decided that the state should be capitalist and so everyone, on their own accord, moved from communal land so it can be passed in to private hands?

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by dvfjsdhgfv on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @12:13PM (#39992364)
As a counter-example, the fall of communism in Eastern bloc was (mostly) a very peaceful process. A notable exception was Romania where the ruler was particularly cruel but in several other countries the system changed without one shot being fired, even though surely there were quite a few proponents of the old regime.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by ImPostingOnHN on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:13PM (#39998069)
The institution of whatever came after the fall of communism was done by force, just like the institution that came before it, for the reason you describe: it's impossible to get literally everyone in an entire country to agree on a government, so the government must be imposed by force.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by TeaBrain on Thursday April 11, 2024 @12:46AM (#39998477)
The comment you are referring to wasn't referring to the difficulty in getting everyone to agree on a form of government, but on how it is impossible to create a large-scale communist economic system without imposing it. This is due to how is it necessary to confiscate property in order to redistribute it in a communist system, which naturally has its opponents, as those who have worked for property believe they have earned it. Almost all of the Soviet states transitioned to market economy democracies without any conflict at all, so your assertion for the need of force is completely wrong. The transition was natural as the people naturally preferred a market economy system, which had led to an underground market economy being created during the Soviet days, known as the second economy of the Soviet Union.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by Kbelicius on Thursday April 11, 2024 @03:38AM (#39999364)
> The comment you are referring to wasn't referring to the difficulty in getting everyone to agree on a form of government, but on how it is impossible to create a large-scale communist economic system without imposing it. This is due to how is it necessary to confiscate property in order to redistribute it in a communist system

And my original comment clearly shows that capitalism also had to be imposed for what once was communal needed to be confiscated in order to be redistributed.

> Almost all of the Soviet states transitioned to market economy democracies without any conflict at all

Indeed, a state capitalist society transitioned to market capitalism. Nothing needed to be taken from any one person but the state. Not really a new system, just new owners.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday April 11, 2024 @12:50AM (#39998490)
> The comment you are referring to wasn't referring to the difficulty in getting everyone to agree on a form of government, but on how it is impossible to create a large-scale communist economic system without imposing it.

That is correct, and I was pointing out that it isn't specific to communism: any government or economic system will have at least 1 person who doesn't like it, but the system being created nonetheless requires imposing it by force, and maintaining it by force, which nearly every government does to this day.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by Kbelicius on Thursday April 11, 2024 @03:27AM (#39999289)
I'd argue that that is not a good counter example. There is a reason why those that implemented the system used in USSR called it state capitalism. So for the factory worker in that regard little did change. The factory just got a new owner. Don't get me wrong, a lot did change, but in this regard little did.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by nolongerthere on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:33PM (#39998162)
That's simply false, capitalism is the natural order, people looking out for their own interests and working with others only when both parties agree to. Communism is forced labor/partnership, and requires disappearing all those who don't want to be part of the system and/or using extreme force to get dissidents to comply. Capitalism simply lets those who don't want to participate pave their own way.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by kibwen on Thursday April 11, 2024 @12:26AM (#39998368)
> people looking out for their own interests and working with others only when both parties agree to

Since we're already knee-deep in nitpicking terminology, this is describing the general philosophy of anarchism, not capitalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by Kbelicius on Thursday April 11, 2024 @03:46AM (#39999420)
What is false? That people were killed and run of their land so that it can be given to private ownership?

Also, what is natural in me owning a factory on the other side of the world when I never left the city I live in?

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by somedude895 on Thursday April 11, 2024 @12:50AM (#39998492)
I'd agree it's basically just a form of authoritarianism. Then again, different regimes have simply adapted communism to their own interpretation. You get North Korea with their Chuch'e, the Chinese call theirs "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics", you had Ba'athism in Iraq. But yeah, communism in its pure, traditional form these are not.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by logicchains on Thursday April 11, 2024 @02:02AM (#39998858)
>communism in its pure, traditional form these are not.

Achieving communism necessarily entails authoritarianism because you need an authoritarian state to seize the property of existing landholders and business owners, and to prevent the creation/operation of new private businesses.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by gloryjulio on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:46AM (#39987666)
While 'goverment has a majority share in every company' is very likely not true, but CCP does have control over the the companies whenever they want.

They would force CCP member into the board and setup CCP organizations within the companies. Anyone who deals with China's companies would need to understand this. You are always dealing with CCP behind it

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by djtango on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:41PM (#39998187)
I know it's not a dichotomy but I think these days I'd take that model over the opposite where behind every politician is a company and with government you are always dealing with companies behind it.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by vondur on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:05PM (#39998021)
I would argue that the CCP is basically fascist at this point.
Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by staplers on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:56PM (#39998236)
Labels like these are arbitrary anyways. It's just about what is explicitly said vs what happens in the shadows.

Take "fines" for example. They are the cost of doing business and never actually dissuade the behavior (in the USA). This in effect allows the government to act as a shareholder (fines = dividends) under the guise of domestic legal enforcement.

Then they turn around and protect the same corporations intellectual and physical property abroad.

Re:Alibaba founder Jack Ma steps out from shadows with long ... by hackerlight on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:23PM (#39998106)
That's the autocratic Leninist party model, which is what enabled them to defy predictions that economic liberalization would lead to political freedoms.

They are solidly state capitalist since Deng, and since Xi I would classify them as far-right revisionist and even possibly fascist, with a strong focus on order, aesthetic, collective responsibility towards nation, and restoring the homeland, where homeland is defined on ethnonationalist not civic nationalist lines.