Another cynical take would be that SawStop has secretly invested heavily in a saw blade manufacturers to profit from more blades being destroyed when the stop event occurs.

Competitor's versions of this don't destroy the blade. The reason competition no longer exist is because SawStop sued based on the limb detection, not the blade repositioning tech.

Expect better than SawStop to appear when able, and this issue to go away.

I have had two brake activations in as many weeks, one on a dado stack (don’t ask). Neither destroyed the blade. Both blades will be back in service within a week.

Just putting out there: the popular idea that blades are always trash after an activation is not true.

That said, cheap big box store blades without carbide teeth will die a horrible death.

Carbide teeth are actually the part that gets destroyed on SawStop activations. Carbide is very brittle, so the sudden stop fractures it.

Yes, and they are consumable and replaceable by design, which goes to my point: the blade is not irreparably destroyed by the activation.

The missing teeth need to be replaced and the plate needs to be re-checked for runout, but most carbide-toothed blades are repairable.

How much does it cost to repair a carbide toothed blade, and how accessible are shops that can perform those repairs? Is it realistic that most consumers would be able to get a blade repaired rather than just running to the hardware store and getting a new one? Not being snarky; I've just never been under the impression that repairs could really be done for less than the value of a new blade.

A carbide blade costs about $100.

I’m paying about $50 service fees for the two blades currently out for repair. The 10” replacements cost over $200, and the 8” dado would require buying a new stack… around $250. The same folks who sharpen and true my blades do the repairs. They’re local to me here in Maine.

Ruminating a bit:

Cheaper blades are replaced more often with use and can’t generally be sharpened; SawStop tech doesn’t change the lifetime of a blade unless an activation happens. So, if you’re already willing to run to the box store for another blade semi-regularly, whether one survives activation perhaps isn’t material?

On the other hand, somebody who doesn’t regularly use their saw is probably both more price conscious and less likely to need sharpening/replacement often. I assume they care most about whether an activation forces them to buy a new blade (and a $100 brake). I suspect those are the people who propagate “SawStop = trashed blade”. For them, it’s true.

I'm actually kind of surprised that any implementation destroyed the blade. Like I don't actually care that the blade is moving, I care where the blade is moving. It seems like a trigger to yank the blade under the table would be the easier and more obvious way to do it.

A few-milliseconds yank covering up to a couple inches of blade height feels like a harder engineering problem than "trigger brakes already right near the blade to grab the shit out of the blade"

So we're somewhat lucky from an engineering standpoint. Because the blade is circular the only interval of time that really matters is from detection to first movement away. Because it triggers on touch the difference between getting sawed and not is millimeters. The time from first movement to full retraction only needs to be fast on human scale time in case the person's hand is still moving into the blade. Name brand SawStop is actually fairly slow on the retraction because it uses the blade's momentum to drive it and that's plenty of speed.

However, the blade-preserving system puts the explosive between the table and the pivot that's already there for retracting the blade. The full explosion force is there to force the blade down and it ends up being faster than the SawStop. Which while cool the SawStop was already fast enough so it's all the same.

So I don't know, I guess to me I'm surprised that the solution we jumped to first was a brake when the action of moving it out of the way takes far far less energy. It's only the energy to move the weight of the blade and bar down at the requisite speed, instead of needing to absorb the full energy of the spinning blade.

> Because the blade is circular the only interval of time that really matters is from detection to first movement away. Because it triggers on touch the difference between getting sawed and not is millimeters. The time from first movement to full retraction only needs to be fast on human scale time in case the person's hand is still moving into the blade. Name brand SawStop is actually fairly slow on the retraction because it uses the blade's momentum to drive it and that's plenty of speed.

Do you mean in a system with both moving it away and a break?

The only time my fingers hit the blade of a table saw they were moving with a fair amount of momentum and hit first low on the blade - dropping the blade at the speed of gravity wouldn't have been enough.

I haven't seen an explosive system like you mention - is that what Bosch had for a bit? - so I don't know just how fast that is, though dropping a spinning-towards-you blade also seems to have some other potential risks of grabbing shit with it, too. If it's fast enough I wouldn't be concerned as much, but at relatively slow speed it seems maybe nasty.

This is pretty true. Sawstop adds more to the cost of a low end table saw than a low end table saw is worth.

Then I guess the question really is: do we think (probably less experienced) consumers should be able to buy table saws that can easily accidentally cut their fingers off, in a way that is preventable but too costly?

All table saws including cheap ones come with a stick used to do the termination of the cut and the instruction manual also says to use the stick. SawStop is probably more useful for experienced contractors pushing the limit to do faster cuts

Better take away kitchen knives too.

Also, you can get a push stick for pennies. There's never an actual reason you need to put your fingers anywhere close to a moving blade.

Table saws, in spite of being used far less than kitchen knives, account for far more digit amputations and more serious ones.

It is pretty uncommon and rather difficult to cause yourself a digit injury that cannot be recovered from with a kitchen knife. Bad technique is most likely to lop off the end of the fingertip which can fully regrow so long as the cut isn’t very deep.

Mandolines and meat slicers (guards are bypassed when cleaning which happens every 4hr, they also tend to be used by 16 year olds) are much much more dangerous but they tend to be dialed in quite shallowly which limits the damage.

Table saws are THE most dangerous thing for your fingers because of where people tend to put their hands when using the tool and how they can go right through your digits and how they’re dialled in to make thick cuts. The logic that well if we accept kitchen knives we shouldn’t have safety regulations on table saws doesn’t make sense because table saws are far more dangerous and unlike with kitchen knives it’s actually possible to enforce the default use of an effective safety mechanism which ensures a cut will usually be shallow enough to be recovered from. Of course some people will disable the brake excessively but the average person will likely keep it on most of the time.

You can argue we shouldn’t have this safety regulation because it will add costs to consumers, and point out that other safety approaches already exist, the safety paradox, but the comparison to kitchen knives doesn’t really make all that much sense. I’d argue adding saw brakes as a standard feature makes a ton of sense due to the high social cost of digit amputation and the inconvenient and frequently ignored use of other safety approaches.

Easy to cut yourself with a kitchen knife, hard to cut your finger off. Safety being proportional to harm is perfectly reasonable.

> There's never an actual reason you need to put your fingers anywhere close to a moving blade.

But that's how it is: people do cut their fingers off on table saws. They all know what you said. And yet 30 K accidents per year in the US alone. It is a serious problem.

I never bought one because it's just too big of a risk.

Just because you're afraid of woodworking doesn't mean you should kill it for everyone. If this passes only professionals will be able to continue, which presumably is what the lobbyists want.

It's no different to Apple insisting that only they should repair Apple products, and hobbyists should be trusted.

Do you risk losing fingers by repairing your Iphone?

You hit a knot in your 2x4 while on a table saw and you might be surprised when you see your fingers laying on the ground and you thought you were being safe too.

You can hurt yourself with a whole array of tools, especially in construction. A sawzall is a pretty horrifying gadget really, for example, and that's likely more popular among homeowners than a table saw.

I can lose fingers with my recip saw, circular saw, oscillating multi-tool, or angle grinder; scalp myself with my dremel (long hair); put a nail through myself with one of my many nailguns; the list of potential risks associated with power tools is numerous.

I think table saw brakes are awesome and absolutely have a benefit for things like high school shop classes, but a properly functioning blade guard also does the job most times.

Based on the data we have about how people end up with finger amputations from hospitals I’d say the evidence that saw guards are inadequate in practice is strong.

I have a feeling these will be as ineffective. From SawStop FAQ:

"You can operate the saw in Bypass Mode which deactivates the safety system’s braking feature, allowing you to cut aluminum, very wet/green wood (see above) and other known conductive materials. If you are unsure whether the material you need to cut is conductive, you can make test cuts using Bypass Mode to determine if it will activate the safety system’s brake."

https://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop/faqs/

The first thing people will do is turn on the bypass and never turn it off.

> The first thing people with 10 fingers, two hands, and two arms will do is turn on the bypass and never turn it off.

I'd have a hard time leaving it off if I had a gristly accident. That might just be me though.

I honestly feel like the majority of this specific community would leave it on given the nature of our interests, and in general I think enough people will leave it on for the brake to be worth it, although this reality certainly does degrade the value of a saw brake mandate.

> The first thing people will do is turn on the bypass and never turn it off.

I have a feeling that you have never used a sawstop. You can not "turn on the bypass and never turn it off." As soon as you hit the stop paddle the bypass mode is disabled. You must reenable the bypass mode every time you want to pull the paddle. If someone is dead set on getting stuff done the bypass procedure gets old quickly.

Have you ever used a sawstop? How did you turn on bypass mode forever?

When I see saws at residential construction sites the blade guards are almost always removed.

If people are already bypassing the safety features then "add more safety features" is a dubious move. Gotta go fast, can't afford if the saw has a false positive, switch it all off. Changing behavior is likely going to be a lot harder.

I don't think the Sawstop will run when the brake isn't fully engaged. I admittedly only tried that once when first using it. But in this case, it's not optional - it's more like the airbag in a car. If it's on, it's working.

There's a bypass: https://blog.ustoolandfastener.com/how-to-activate-sawstop-b...

Seems like you have to do it for every time you switch it on, but on the jobsite saw it's not a key, just an extra button, so we'll see if people get in the habit of just always turning it off in case they have wet wood or other material.

Yeah, because people are foolish and disregard safety procedures. I don't think we can, or should even try to, structure society to keep people safe when they choose to disregard safety.

Blade guards are the first thing removed in a commercial environment, and probably by a good number of hobbyists who think they'll get in the way. They also can make accurate cuts difficult to align since they partially obscure the blade.

Gotta love false dichotomies. There are anti-kickback and guard solutions on the market today. They suck on the cheaper saws but it would be a hell of a lot less expensive to fix that than add a saw stop.

I would prefer woodworkers pay more for table saws than I have to pay for their reconstructive surgeries via higher health insurance premiums.

Then the insurance companies could require it.

I think you'll pay high health insurance premiums regardless of whether anyone gets hurt because it's a parasitic industry and we live in a culture of bottomless greed.

More experienced customers are likely using the saw more often so I wouldn’t presume this only or primarily benefits the inexperienced.

First digit amputation (100% recoverable) I caused myself happened after spending most of my life using a knife because I just got complacent and was cooking when I knew I was extremely fatigued. Wood is also a natural product where natural variance can cause a table saw to operate in unexpected ways that catch people off guard.

The hobbyist table saw owners I know (myself included) tend to be more careful around a saw. We have the luxury of time to setup and think about our cuts (and less complacency) than the folks shoving wood through a saw to meet a deadline or because the boss is telling them they need to make X amount of cabinets per day.

But does it actually cost that much more or does SawStop just price their saws at a premium for having a premium feature?

My understanding is that the excess cost isn't so much the safety device itself but that cheap, flimsy table saws can't handle the extreme torque created by stopping the saw more-or-less instantly, so the device is limited to higher end equipment that's heavier and has better build quality.

If it costs 200$ to add the device and modify the saw to accept it and the original saw cost 300$ you've got a pretty massive increase. Also from some deep dive I saw apparently SawStop has basically cornered the entire premium market and the only market left for other saw makers was the low end range.