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Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @08:16AM (#39978600)
Would you buy stocks in a biochemistry or medicine company without a single biochemist or physician on the board?
Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by fsflover on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @09:09AM (#39979050)
A biochemistry or medicine company must do something novel to be relevant. In this case it's not necessary.
Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @09:34AM (#39979272)
Then you haven't understood that direct democracy works by convincing fellow citicens to vote for a new idea or direction. People are critical, especially if the new idea or direction restricts their comfort. So you can't just claim anything, you have to win trust with authority and evidence. But it seems that this committee would rather go to court than convince fellow citizens of the validity of their arguments.
Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by yareal on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @10:55AM (#39980126)
Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority, apathy, disenfranchisement, and multiple concerns that compete for head space. It's also slow, and the legal system exists specifically to address concerns like this.

If a cop is busting heads, you don't wait to elect a new sheriff, you bring a lawsuit to fix the acute problem. If a department is systematically harming a group, you can try to elect someone who will make this their project, or you can get an intervention to prevent further harm via the legal system.

Using the legal system to prevent acute harm is both correct and reasonable, even in a democracy.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @11:30AM (#39980529)
> Democracy is also vulnerable to the tyranny of the majority

Democracy is about the majority; and in Switzerland - in contrast to most other democracies - it's the majority of the real population, not just an elite class, and the people directly decide about real problems, not just who should represent them. And there are even provisions which assure that local concerns are sufficiently considered. You should inform yourself about this great political system.

> Using the legal system to prevent acute harm is both correct and reasonable

In the present case, it's clearly a misuse; it's a lobby organization with a lot of money that pro forma puts forward an association of old women so that with this sleight of hand the complaint is accepted by the court at all on a subject where the court has no jurisdiction at all. The aim is to undermine a democratically made decision against the will of the people, i.e. exactly the opposite of a democratic process.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by yareal on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:12AM (#39991611)
Go google Tyranny of the Majority. Then respond after educating yourself. Unless you genuinely believe that the majority always makes the correct decision. In which case I can't help you.
Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @11:47AM (#39992040)
Then take the chance and make a name for yourself by proposing a better state system than the one in Switzerland. I hope you are not suggesting the tyranny of minorities, on which various works also exist.

It is in the nature of human beings that a few will always be dissatisfied, no matter how well off they are or what form of society is applied.

The sovereignty of the Swiss people is a compromise that came about on a voluntary basis through the coming together of people from different regions and languages. No one is forced to live in Switzerland, and yet a considerable part of the world seems to want to do so.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by yareal on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @05:20PM (#39995844)
Switzerland didn't allow all women to vote until 1990, and didn't allow any women to vote until 1971.

You might say, will they did eventually and recently fix that, but what systemic inequalities allowed that to last so long?

For what it's worth, I do think direct democracy is good, but I don't think direct democracy always solves the most urgent problems or ensures that nonmajority people can survive.

Let me be extra clear, Swiss voting system sounds pretty good. But it's not flawless. It can even be the best system in widespread use and not be flawless. The will of the majority can be wrong, and it needs to be acceptable to challenge it.

Here in the USA the will of the majority was to segregate schools and prevent Black kids from attending them. That's what the majority wanted. It was wrong, and the minority using the courts to overturn the will of the majority is correct. Waiting to convince a new generation to integrate would do irreparable harm.

Challenges to the majority viewpoint are crucial and healthy and normal in a democracy. Whether that majority is conservative or progressive, we need to test the results regularly.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @05:33PM (#39995962)
> You might say, will they did eventually and recently fix that

The values and legal system of a democracy essentially reflect the will of the people, and fifty years ago people had a different attitude to these values than they do today. And we cannot expect each country to come to the same conclusions. The question is: do we know a better system than (direct) democracy to improve society in the long term? Likely not.

An ever-growing danger that is damaging society and democracy is the ever-increasing polarization and thus the reduction of pluralism of opinion and discussion culture, fuelled, for example, by lobby organizations that have very large financial resources at their disposal, or by the corruption of science through tendentious funding systems such as we have today. It is becoming increasingly difficult to form a sufficiently objective opinion on factual issues and to isolate the relevant facts from the many fake news and paid bogus experts. In Germany in the 1930s, for example, we saw how systematic misinformation and indoctrination can affect the will of voters. In relation to the present discussion, see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39995558.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by yareal on Thursday April 11, 2024 @08:34AM (#40001429)
We're clearly talking past each other at this point. Let's just move on and go our separate ways.
Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by lispm on Friday April 12, 2024 @07:11AM (#40011284)
> the will of the people

women were not "people"? Were they asked? If not, why not?

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by lispm on Friday April 12, 2024 @07:10AM (#40011279)
> it's the majority of the real population

I have questions. What is a "real" population?

The swiss direct democracy is about "the majority of the real population" ? So the intiatives are won with a majority of the population? >50% of the population? Is that true? I thought it's something like >50% of the valid votes.

> You should inform yourself about this great political system.

Please explain this great political system to me.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Friday April 12, 2024 @07:28AM (#40011370)
> What is a "real" population?

Might be the wrong term, thus in quotes; I wanted to express, that the voters can directly influence political decisions; in a representative democracy, in contrast, such decisions are reserved for a political elite (in the case of a representative democracy e.g. a parlament); the problem of the latter is, that this "elite" tends to live in their own world during their term of office.

> Please explain this great political system to me.

That would really go too far in a commentary, and there are also established sources that can explain this far better than I can. I'm also not used to writing about it in English. I recommend first of all the links mentioned in my other comments.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by lispm on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:32AM (#40013381)
> voters can directly influence political decisions

and the "elite" can influence voters through other means. That "masses" can be manipulated should be known.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by yareal on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @10:40AM (#39979953)
Apples and oranges. The people aren't attempting to do climate science in this case.

Would I buy stock in a company that uses biochemistry products, but did not have a biochemist? Yes, of course.

Re:Switzerland faces landmark climate-human rights ruling by Rochus on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @10:47AM (#39980033)
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39979272

And they obviously didn't convince Swiss voters, but made them angry instead and more sceptical towards European institutions.

See e.g. https://www.20min.ch/story/schweiz-verurteilt-klimaseniorinn... which includes a poll where 80% of currently ~15k people regard Swiss climate measures as sufficient and the interference of foreign judges as an impertinence.