News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by whimsicalism on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:38PM (#39955284)
If motorcycles require loud pipes to be safe, they should probably be banned altogether - but I don't really think it is necessary to have loud pipes.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by 01HNNWZ0MV43FF on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:47PM (#39955367)
A really good pollution tax would cover noise pollution. It never seems to get enforced
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by gchamonlive on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:49PM (#39955390)
That's one, very narrow way of viewing it. Another would be that cars lack the necessary visibility to be safe. No one in their right mind would advocate to banning cars. Instead, sensors could be employed to make up for the lack of visibility in cars. This should maybe be the topic of discussion, to introduce these types of safety sensors as essential. ABS breaks weren't the norm a few decades ago, so why not start discussing making these safety sensors standard? One point of discussion could be what types of sensors there are, which vehicles they are employed and if they are effective.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by 2024throwaway on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:59PM (#39955470)
I advocate for banning cars.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by gchamonlive on Saturday April 06, 2024 @06:13PM (#39956125)
You mean transitioning to a car-less society over a reasonable period of time or out right car ban? I am talking about the later in my comment.

An I say "reasonable" intentionally vague because there are degrees of car dependency that varies between regions. On average, I believe Europe might be closer to banning private cars. USA I would bet not so much.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by RedShift1 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:06PM (#39955544)
Thanks for considering taking away the tool I need every day to get to my job
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by 2024throwaway on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:07PM (#39955555)
Thanks for assuming there are no other possible alternatives.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by RedShift1 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:09PM (#39955578)
By car: 30 mins. Public transport: 1 hour 30 mins. I'm not wasting 2 extra hours each day.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by matsemann on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:17PM (#39955649)
It's not like society without cars would be the exact same just without cars. People would live closer to where they need to be. It would be more public transport. More 15-minute cities etc.

It's a bit dishonest to argue for continued car dominance just because it's already status quo.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by VS1999 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:32PM (#39955773)
This is why there's such a disconnect between people who have to commute to work and people advocating for your policies. You flippantly suggest something that would make another person's life much more miserable, and then when he protests, you handwave it away by saying that society will just be better and he'll live closer to his job.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by 2024throwaway on Saturday April 06, 2024 @06:52PM (#39956412)
Oh you’re right. Sorry. Let’s never change anything.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by matsemann on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:15AM (#39958851)
No, that's not what I said. I said others things would accommodate the new status quo, hence it's not fair to compare it to "exactly as today, but without cars". Like, you pose that it would be much more miserable. I don't think it would be.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by RedShift1 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:21PM (#39955691)
Ok, but that's not the world we live in right now. Where my job is, is also in a quite boring area, almost rural. I don't want to move there.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by matsemann on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:20AM (#39958579)
Me: the world would change to accommodate

You: it's not the world we live in right now

Which is a useless retort.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by kazinator on Saturday April 06, 2024 @10:13PM (#39957565)
> People would live closer to where they need to be.

And work the first 25 days out of each month month to pay for it, LOL.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by matsemann on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:18AM (#39958575)
Oooor perhaps it could be the opposite, that things move closer to where people are. Instead of living in dead suburbia, there actually would be stores, cafes etc in those areas, instead of people having to take a car for every little thing they want to do in their life.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by kazinator on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:09AM (#39958821)
Non-remote work cannot be closer to everyone, if every employee of the company lives in a different suburb, on opposite ends of town.

As for stores, suburbanites will still go to the a cheaper, larger store with more selection. That's usually in the same suburb, but still a good drive.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by Turing_Machine on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:49AM (#39958445)
People aren't obligated to live where you think they ought to live, and no one put you in charge of using social control mechanisms to force them to conform to your opinions.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by matsemann on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:17AM (#39958566)
Way to miss the point, and please f off with your statements about me wanting to force people to do anything. What a shitty way to adress someone you disagree with. We do better here on HN, as a long term member I'm disappointed in your behavior.

If better options were available, people would choose those. When we don't make better options because people are stuck in a local optima of car culture, there is no change. My point was what I wrote: you can't make a comparison with less cars as if everything else in society would have remained equal. Of course there would be secondary effects to handle the fact that people would have to live and travel differently.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by Turing_Machine on Sunday April 07, 2024 @10:35AM (#39961055)
Please "f off" with your "dishonest" and "f off" statements.

You don't get to call people "dishonest", tell them to "f off", call them "shitty", then get pious and offended when someone takes exception to that.

> We do better here on HN, as a long term member I'm disappointed in your behavior.

You've been here since 2013. I've been using this account since 2010 so you can "f off" with that, too.

> If better options were available, people would choose those.

"Better" according to who? You?

If people can't get food, they start eating rats and shoe leather. It doesn't make it "better".

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by matsemann on Monday April 08, 2024 @03:43AM (#39967214)
> I've been using this account since 2010 so you can "f off" with that, too.

The point was that I expected better from _you_, a long standing member here. But your response again shows I need to adjust that expectation.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by sneak on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:15PM (#39955628)
Human-driven internal combustion vehicles should be banned. Autonomous EVs are fine.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by Apreche on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:05PM (#39955529)
I also advocate banning cars. The greatest mistake our society has made. Not too late to correct it.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by bifrost on Saturday April 06, 2024 @08:57PM (#39957168)
Thats gross.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by 2024throwaway on Saturday April 06, 2024 @09:09PM (#39957232)
Cars are gross.

Exhaust. Oil. Tire wear microplastics.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by kamray23 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:02AM (#39959101)
Sensors form a big issue, though. The newer Teslas especially are excellent at ruining safety sensors for the rest of the industry. Now instead of turning your head left to look left and see your blind spot out of what should be a far enough back window to see your blind spot, you can crouch over to press buttons and then look at the small circle on the big screen which shows your blind spot. Fine otherwise but it incentivises not even looking out of your left window as you begin turning, and takes your sight off the road in general, even if for just a look, and even when automatically activated by the blinker. It's a profoundly unsafe safety system because it acts to take your sight away from where it should go, even if it means you don't have to quickly turn your head, and it allows lazier and less safe vehicle design as you no longer have to make sure the driver has possible sightlines to blind spots.

Worse perhaps are all types of proximity sensors, because you can only trust them when they go off, and even then not always. Most cars get dirt on them, snow on them, rain on them and that tends to mess with proximity sensing enough to either disable the sensors or cause them to go off randomly. I don't think anyone has ever yet trusted the blind spot sensors on their mirrors to do a lane change, only aborted one because of them. Such non-camera sensors would fix almost nothing because at best they would sometimes cause people to reconsider swerving into a motorcyclist, and even then they usually go off way too late to prevent misfires while driving normally.

These are great features when they work but overengineering around fundamental design problems seems to me to only put people too much at ease in their cars and make bad driver behaviour worse, because why spin your head around to check when you can just not do that and stare at the little screen or trust your array of easily fooled sensors to do safety in your place. I think solutions like finding alternative pillar configurations, creating long or short enough front side windows for you to see back, harsher driver's license testing with longer required study periods and in cases where you can't do anything else such as some pickups just doing what semis do and having several well-aligned mirrors instead of one set of nice-looking ones would be a lot safer in the end.

As well as getting people who can't drive for shit off the road. That's sort of included in driver's license requirements but there's surely some other methods for it that I have not mentioned.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by Ekaros on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:49PM (#39955385)
So how will they make loud electric motorcycles? As surely we will have to mandate those as well for the green future... What sort of alarm sound they will be mandated to make?
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by kamray23 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:05AM (#39959125)
That's already an issue with cars. Most EVs beep or sing or hiss quite loudly when you put them in reverse gear and at low speeds where tyre noise is low they have to augment with ICE and/or whining sounds to not be so silent and deadly. Especially the last few decades from the walkman to ipods to modern bluetooth headphones it's already been really important that vehicles make noise to warn pedestrians of their presence. Suddenly getting reversed on in a parking garage makes nobody happy.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by growse on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:43PM (#39955323)
Bikes are perfectly safe. It's car drivers who aren't.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by whimsicalism on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:46PM (#39955353)
most motorcycle accidents involve only the motorcycle and no other vehicle and motorcycles have a considerably higher rate of fatal crashes due to things like hitting fixed barriers.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by growse on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:48PM (#39955901)
What that stat doesn't tell you is the rate of near misses.

It's anecdotal I know, but as someone who commutes on a bike, the number of times I almost crash by myself per journey is near zero, yet the number of times a car tries to inadvertently occupy the same piece of road as me is multiple.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by whimsicalism on Saturday April 06, 2024 @11:44PM (#39958028)
motorbike? or bicycle bike?
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by growse on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:00AM (#39959095)
Motorbike
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by djbusby on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:49PM (#39955386)
https://www.nhtsa.gov/book/countermeasures-that-work/motorcy...

Here is some data from USA, I've not read it.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by kazinator on Saturday April 06, 2024 @10:14PM (#39957577)
Oh, bikes are perfectly safe; it's fixed barriers that aren't.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by yongjik on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:23PM (#39955714)
In the days of Wright Brothers, it would have been perfectly safe to take off and fly your airplane in any direction as long as you can see where you are, but it's obviously no longer safe these days, and there are strict rules about where you are allowed and who you have to contact at which locations.

"What is safe" obviously depends on who else are on the road.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by endymi0n on Saturday April 06, 2024 @04:59PM (#39955472)
This. Guns don‘t kill people, people kill people. And for every bad toddler with a gun, we better have two good toddlers with a gun.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by magicalhippo on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:05PM (#39955524)
As a driver, the only times I've had near-accidents with bikes have been when they came up on me unexpectedly. Like left side shoulder when I'm stuck in traffic in the left lane.

I only got my license a few years ago, public transport works quite well here in Norway, seems I haven't yet learned all the sneaky ways bike riders can surprise ya.

That said, I see idiots behind the wheel causing near crashes several times a week so yeah I guess as a rider those scare you a lot more.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by zdragnar on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:20PM (#39955683)
I'm not saying car drivers are better or worse (there's plenty of both on average), but you need to watch out for different things when around bikes.

Riding through red lights without stopping or yielding to traffic turning right, riding on sidewalks forcing pedestrians out of their way, zipping back and forth between the sidewalk and road, changing lanes without signaling and assuming the cars will read their minds and slow down for them are all things I saw in my few years living in a bigger city with lots of bicyclists.

Never got into an accident with one, but I was a passenger in a car that nearly hit one. She either had psychological problems, or was intentionally trying to get an insurance payout, because she absolutely tried to get hit, then freaked out on the driver when he managed to slow down in time.

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by Hatrix on Saturday April 06, 2024 @06:17PM (#39956148)
As a pedestrian, I want bicycle riding banned from sidewalks and any other pedestrian area.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by kamray23 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:08AM (#39959137)
It is in most places. At least in Europe where I live there's a limit of 12 years old for cycling on sidewalks and pedways marked with only a pedestrian sign, whereas sidewalks which are wide enough and marked with both a bicycle and pedestrian sign as well as paths marked with both a bicycle and pedestrian signs are for pedestrians and bicyclists equally. And of course this has its logical conclusion in bicycle-exclusive bike lanes and bike paths with no pedestrians at all on them. It's especially no issue if everyone gets the rules, generally on wide sidewalks where bikes are allowed the outer side with buildings is for pedestrians and the inner side near the road is for cars. Where no bicycle-OK sidewalk exists you just use the road or walk with the bike.
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by Turing_Machine on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:53AM (#39958459)
No, they are not. They are an extremely hazardous form of transportation.

I like riding motorcycles, but I don't fool myself into thinking that they're anywhere near as safe as a modern car.

In fact, they are responsible for more than 28 times the fatalities per mile traveled than cars.

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...

Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by growse on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:02AM (#39959103)
You're right, I should have added the qualifier "_when operated corrrectly_".
Re:Do Loud Pipes Save Lives? by timbit42 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @08:41AM (#39960355)
Rare.