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Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:04PM (#39919196)
Why do electric car company try to bite off so much? The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel", but that should be extended to not re-inventing door handles, speedometers and the basic driving controls that have evolved over the last century. My car has a mechanical latch. No wires. No electricity. The lock has an electric actuator, but the mechanical linkages work just fine without power. Who out there was on the focus group wanting electric-only doors?
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by 83 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:22PM (#39919402)
Just looking inside a modern car door panel should give you some idea why. It's a 3d jigsaw puzzle of door linkages, switches, window lifter, speaker, etc and the metal stamping die to make the inner panel must be insanely complex.

An electric only latch would reduce parts count, simplify assembly, and ease door panel design for a new manufacturer. I'm also strongly in the "keep things mechanical" camp but I see the appeal to engineers making a new model car and wanting to keep things simple.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:49PM (#39919750)
>> An electric only latch would reduce parts count

I disagree. Dozens of parts are needed simply to bring an electric wire into a door. Every penetration needs grommets and strain relief. A flexible weatherproof system needs to get the wire from the door to the rest of the car. Relays. Fuses. It all adds up. I cannot believe that a manually-actuated lever would require any more parts.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by hengheng on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:07PM (#39920048)
There are two kinds of engineers in the mechanical and electrical departments. One says "If we just run wires / automate / motorize it will be easier", and they see the direct path from start to finish that matches the requirements.

Then there are those who say "every wire complicates compliance testing, every automation complicates failure modes, every custom part complicates supply chain", and they are the ones that prefer in-house mechanical parts with conservative materials and tooling.

I think it's an age thing, maybe it's a hipster vs greasy-elbows-shop-floor guy thing, but honestly it can be hard to tell who's right.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by tomxor on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:37PM (#39920485)
There's another angle: system independence.

When things go wrong, i.e in a crash, you still want to guarantee an undammaged door latching mechanism can still be operated independent of other parts of the car being damaged (likely). To satisfy this for a purely electrically actuated latch you would need a battery and independent controller in every door.

It's hard to beat the reliability of a mechanical latch and a human hand to satisfy that requirement.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by OrigamiPastrami on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:17PM (#39920191)
I think it's mostly an issue of experience. Younger engineers tend to make things more complicated than they need to be and are unaware of reliability issues. Older engineers better understand tried-and-true systems and are more likely to want to stick with things they know work well.

Obviously I'm speaking generally and individuals vary greatly.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by 83 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @02:08PM (#39920857)
>> Every penetration needs grommets and strain relief.

You mean the grommets and strain relief that are already present for windows/speakers/locks? In most cases it's probably not even additional wires as power and control (either can bus or lin bus) are already established from the door to bcm (body control module).

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by Lord_Zero on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:39PM (#39920513)
Sure but in most cases, there's ALREADY wires going to the window motors and locks. In this situation, removing the mechanical door handle/latch operation does indeed simplify things.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bombcar on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:39PM (#39920508)
You already have power in the door, because a car without power windows is a non-starter these days. And power locks.

So using the electricity already present for the door handles has to be entirely tempting.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by numpad0 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:44PM (#39919696)
Thay come with that jigsaw puzzles anyway. Manual release is required.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by 83 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @02:19PM (#39921005)
>>Manual release is required.

Is it?

Happy to be proven wrong since I'm far from an expert on FMVSS, but what I've seen specifies capabilities like ability to lock and amount of force it must endure, not the actual implementation (mechanical/electrical/etc).

Regardless the article only tells us the "emergency override mechanism did not work". Whether that is electrical or mechanical we can only guess (one would hope mechanical).

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by numpad0 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:46PM (#39922147)
TIL, [0]:

  FMVSS No. 206 does not directly regulate either interior or exterior door handles. It does, however, impliedly require both interior and exterior door handles or other release mechanisms in its regulation of door locks (see generally, 49 CFR 571.206, S4.1.3 and S4.4.2). 
Also UNECE R11[1] soft-require mechanical external door handles.

I think there are also other implied requirements from other sections/directives, such as in crash safety that the doors are required to be locked while crashing, unlocked after a crash, can be opened but not unlatched and flopping. Meanwhile, electrical systems would be required not to pose hazards. I’m guessing those together are ruling out all but flap type manual handles, at least on front side doors.

0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/24393rbm

1: p.23 https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/201...

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by testval123 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:13PM (#39920141)
If my car is on fire I sure as heck don't want to rely on an electrical door release
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by dave78 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:15PM (#39919323)
I assume some of it is because these electric car companies need an edge - if they just made the car the same way Toyota and Honda does then it would appear to the consumer to just be an electrified Civic or Corolla.

I think they're trying to come off as futuristic, luxury, and exotic, and I guess that requires making things different for the sake of differentiation.

Perhaps it's also a bit of arrogance, thinking that they can make a better door handle than the old, stodgy automakers (and then finding out the hard way that sometimes things are the way they are for a reason).

On the other hand, I've noticed on my last few cars that the door handles sometimes feel like they're going to break if I pull too hard, like when the doors are frozen shut during freezing rain conditions. Maybe the traditional handles aren't that great either (though none have actually broken on me yet).

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:42PM (#39919654)
>> just be an electrified Civic

Take my money! That is exactly what I want. I want a basic car that does car stuff. Cut the networking. Cut the touchscreens. I want a car that starts and moves reliably with some basic comforts. I would pay more for a car without touchscreens. I would pay more for an electric car without bluetooth.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by MarkusWandel on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:09PM (#39920077)
Then buy a Civic. I have a 2023. It has a touchscreen. Which is entirely devoted to "non core functionality" such as bluetooth calling (which also has steering wheel controls), Android Auto/Apple Carplay, radio etc. The only "core" functionality is that it displays backup camera video when reversing.

All the standard buttons and controls are there. The button to push the trunk, the child lock enable/disable, the mirror adjusts, the (electric) parking brake, you name it. Nothing that was a physical control on my previous cars has been touchscreened. The car even has a completely separate menu system, with a completely separate gauge-cluster LCD, for the "core" stuff. Not touch screen. Steering wheel buttons. That menu system isn't the greatest, but you also don't need it day to day.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @02:52PM (#39921449)
I still want a manual transmission (if not an EV) and manual parking brake. I keep cars for decades. I don't want to deal with "conveniences" that brick the rest of the car when they break.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by numpad0 on Thursday April 04, 2024 @11:44AM (#39931870)
It's actually just Tesla anticonsumerism that the touchscreen is integral to the car. In legacy cars with A/C knobs separate to the screen, the screen is usually just eyecandy that can be safely removed without impacting everything up to self driving. It's just airliner seatback movie screen for cars has nothing to do with flying or driving.

So if you get a ... I'm not particularly Honda inclined, so I'd say, if you go for anything in the price range of Civic or vicinity, and made sure there's separate physical A/C knobs that aren't connected to the center screen, you should be able to just later install a 2035 Adobe CarPlayAuto 23.4 compliant head unit when the time comes, and keep the car just as you wish(dc I'm not a car manufacturer rep, dyor required).

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bdcravens on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:29PM (#39920393)
They want a Civic EV.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by kraquepype on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:00PM (#39919937)
Same, I ended up with a Kia Niro EV (previous gen) because it doesn't resemble your typical bleeding edge EV.

It shares a platform with the ICE Niro, and aside from the charging port and obvious lack of exhaust pipe it doesn't look like an EV.

Give me a basic EV that looks like a normal car and I'd be happy.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by mcguire on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:52PM (#39920652)
Wasn't that how Tesla started, making an electrified version of a Lotus Elan?
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by NovemberWhiskey on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:37PM (#39919593)
>The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel"

TSLA: check out my yoke!

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:56PM (#39919880)
That's not re-invention. That is just re-hashing. Every decade some car designer "invents" another not-round steering wheel. Every one has been a flop.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by rainbowzootsuit on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:23PM (#39920298)
It worked for KITT, so why not a production car?
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bdcravens on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:31PM (#39920421)
Where's my Turbo Boost?
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bdcravens on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:31PM (#39920410)
Forget the yoke - the new Model 3 still has a wheel but removed the stalks, moving the turn signal to buttons on the steering wheel and everything else to the touchscreen (though there's a second set of gear changes in the ceiling)
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by NovemberWhiskey on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:33PM (#39920444)
I think, in fairness, we have to blame Ferrari for that - they did it first with the Enzo, and brought it to their "base" models with the 458, I think?
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by etimberg on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:42PM (#39919649)
It's typical tech hubris to think that all these problems are so simple.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by IncreasePosts on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:35PM (#39919571)
I think the flat door handles are because EVs biggest enemy to range is wind resistance, and so they flatten the door handles to get an extra .5% range. Do that on 15 different parts of a car and you've got yourself a 300 mile range.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:43PM (#39919677)
But a flat handle doesn't need to be electric. Literally every aircraft built in the last fifty years has used a flat/recessed door handles. From the biggest 747 to the smallest Cessna, they all have manual levers that fold flat to reduce drag. All are designed to last essentially forever despite constant use. None of them need electricity to open.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by IncreasePosts on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:50PM (#39919759)
At least in the Model Y(which I'm familiar with), I believe the door handles are electrically actuated because the car also needs to slightly roll down the window before allowing the door to open, which allows them to not have the normal metal frame around the window.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by voisin on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:16PM (#39921771)
> which allows them to not have the normal metal frame around the window.

Why did this become a feature? My old Mini Cooper had this and I hated it. Passengers would pull on the area they were used to pulling on and often this is where the metal frame is, but in the absence of a frame they pull on the glass and it had a very concerning look to it.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by jcrawfordor on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:54PM (#39919830)
There are quite a few vehicles that do this without an electric door release, for example the Dodge Challenger. I think the whole idea was pioneered by the domestic automakers over a decade ago.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by NovemberWhiskey on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:38PM (#39919601)
FWIW my Polestar 2 has a 300 mile range and regular door handles.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by IncreasePosts on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:48PM (#39919736)
Sure, but it would have a 301.5 mile range if they flattened those door handles!
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by Rinzler89 on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:56PM (#39919875)
You could also reach the 301.5 mile range by going on a diet/skipping breakfast. Win-win.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bobthepanda on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @12:14PM (#39919304)
Electric only doors unfortunately are not new, given that I struggle to find a decent minivan with doors that can be opened manually
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by drcongo on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:05PM (#39920014)
Toyota Sienna? Nissan Serena?
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bobthepanda on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:38PM (#39920507)
Toyota Sienna has power sliding doors in all 2024 models.

Nissan Serena is not sold in the US

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bombcar on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:46PM (#39920592)
If you want a minivan without power sliding doors, you're going to be out of luck.

If you want a minivan where the doors can still be opened with no power, most of them can.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bobthepanda on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @02:57PM (#39921511)
at least all the modern ones i've seen, you cannot open them all the way using only manual and without power, because it's not good for the motors. or maybe that's one of those common myths.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bombcar on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:28PM (#39921926)
The manuals I've looked at say something like "don't open it without power, it may damage things. If you have to open it without power, be careful."

At least the Kia mentions non-power doors, so even if not available in the USA they're made somewhere for some market. If you really wanted to, you could probably import the parts and swap.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by drcongo on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:39PM (#39922056)
Ah, I see! I have a Toyota Vellfire and you can just turn the power doors off, when you do that they behave exactly like non-power doors. When I was over in Austin recently I got a ride in a Sienna taxi and the back doors were manual in that, so presumably that model lets you switch them off too.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by drcongo on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:36PM (#39922012)
But they can be opened and closed manually which is what you asked for.

edit: replied before reading further down the thread, have replied more usefully further down.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by SoftTalker on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:17PM (#39920203)
Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors. Central locking and motorized windows are just standard now. Once you have the wiring and mechanisms in place for that, an automatic latch isn't a big step. But there should be a reliable manual override. Being able to get out of the car can be a life-or-death safety issue.

Even with manual latches, people are advised to keep a hammer in the car to break a window if necessary.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by marssaxman on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @04:21PM (#39922568)
> Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors.

I would pay extra for a car with those features! If only. Alas, your point stands, because there are (apparently) very few people like me.

Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by bombcar on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @01:40PM (#39920521)
Maybe these startup companies should start with boring trade vehicles (which even today often have manual windows and locks) instead of the flashy consumer cars. But that won't attract the VC funding.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by voisin on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:14PM (#39921745)
That would have a bigger environmental impact as those vehicles tend to get significantly more use.
Re:Fisker's Ocean SUV investigated for doors that won't open by voisin on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:00PM (#39921548)
I am unclear why regulators haven’t taken aim at this for safety reasons given how regulated every other component of a vehicle is. Same with the digitization of the dashboard, which is a massive distraction while driving.

And at the same time, height of the front hood - why haven’t regulators had anything to say with trucks having hoods well above the height of many pedestrians?